Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/JoeBiden?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@joebiden</a> touring auto plant in Detroit quickly gets into an argument with a worker over guns. <a href="https://t.co/37oCrX62HS">pic.twitter.com/37oCrX62HS</a></p>— Natasha Korecki (@natashakorecki) <a href="https://twitter.com/natashakorecki/status/1237381866837196802?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

How does Biden continually get into these heated arguments? Other candidates have to receive these types of comments during these events, but Biden is always the one with the sound byte.

 

[Deleted member 3166]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

No, my anecdotal evidence of actual human beings is exactly as valuable as everyone else's. Very little.

However, your anecdotal evidence of what you see on social media is worth even less. Bupkis, in fact.

A million people scold the same dozen trolls. Because they are all now in the same echo chamber, they think it's ubiquitous, but it all tracks back to the same source. I'm sure there's a word for it in information theory -- it is essentially how astro-turfing works, and why Bloomberg bought Influencers. It's the social media equivalent of the Seattle windshield pitting epidemic.

How many times do you need to be told this isn't just people on social media?
That a lot of us know people spouting the Bernie Bros crap in real life.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

No, my anecdotal evidence of actual human beings is exactly as valuable as everyone else's. Very little.

However, your anecdotal evidence of what you see on social media is worth even less. Bupkis, in fact.

A million people scold the same dozen trolls. Because they are all now in the same echo chamber, they think it's ubiquitous, but it all tracks back to the same source. I'm sure there's a word for it in information theory -- it is essentially how astro-turfing works, and why Bloomberg bought Influencers. It's the social media equivalent of the Seattle windshield pitting epidemic.

So you arent on Twitter but you feel confident/arrogant enough to know that only trolls and Bots are the ones who dare misrepresent Saint Bernard? My you certainly woke up on the Massive Ego side of the bed this morning.

I know this is hard to believe since I didnt go to a fake Ivy League SUNY school like you did...but I can actually tell quite easily the reals from the fakes on social media. You could too if you dared lower yourself to do so. Think of the stories you could tell at your cocktail parties with the rest of the AARP-Socialist Crowd you hang with! They would think you were SO BOHEMIAN and spill their drink as they laughed! You could be like a poet warrior!

The best part is...we hear how social media is not a good representation, it is a cesspool and should not be trusted...yet that is what Bernie and his spokespeople tout as proof they have the people to beat Biden and bring about the revolution. You cant have it both ways. Twitter may be a cesspool of human garbage, but much of that human garbage is just representative of the human garbage that truly exists in this country. Those clowns you pretend dont exist on Twitter are the same ones who show up at Bernie rallies or shout down the candidates who dare run against Bernard. These are the ones who attack Chelsea Clinton at a memorial for people who died because she dared say Anti-Semitism is bad. (which somehow equates to Palestinians should die) Just because they then go on Instagram after to post the videos doesnt make them fake, it makes them more savvy and twice as dangerous.

None of that means Bernie is bad or doesnt deserve his shot...still got my vote. Bernie isnt a reflection of the people who vote for him but the movement needs to nip some of this crap in the bud or it will get out of hand and stand in the way of the things we are fighting for.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/JoeBiden?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@joebiden</a> touring auto plant in Detroit quickly gets into an argument with a worker over guns. <a href="https://t.co/37oCrX62HS">pic.twitter.com/37oCrX62HS</a></p>— Natasha Korecki (@natashakorecki) <a href="https://twitter.com/natashakorecki/status/1237381866837196802?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

How does Biden continually get into these heated arguments? Other candidates have to receive these types of comments during these events, but Biden is always the one with the sound byte.

Because Biden isnt taking the politicians way out. Polished politicians would side step it or placate...he wants the fight and he wants the soundbyte. (this stuff only seems to help him overall) Any other election I think he would be DOA but the average voter seems to love this for some reason. They flocked to Trump to watch him do this to the Libs and now they flock to Biden for doing it too. I dont get it but if I didnt know otherwise I would almost say he is doing it on purpose so it goes viral because he gets that is how the system works now. Much like Trump though his stupidity is actually working in his favor though. He is the monkey who hits random keys and writes a complete sentence by accident.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I don't think it's a freedom thing Kep but more of the views you're putting forth seem to completely absolve people from personal responsibility.

So, if college is free, no need to bust your @ ss to keep a scholarship. If healthcare is free, no need to stay in shape. If income is free (UBI), no need to be a productive citizen. If prison time is abolished for non-violent crime, no need to police your own behavior. Now you personally most likely believe in personal responsibility which is great, but when the masses see all these democratic socialist proposals the question of is anybody responsible for doing anything creeps up. Might also be why the young aren't turning out - its somebody else's responsibility, and not theirs, to vote Sanders into office to bring about these changes.

I think this is a conflict between two competing views of human motivation: the whip and the buffet.

Some people think the way to get people to do things is to put them into a punishment situation if they don't. Negative reinforcement. This is the basis of our work ethos (work or starve).

Some people think the way to get people to do things is to put a buffet in front of them and say, "pick anything you want and thrive." No reinforcement either way, positive or negative. Just choice and freedom and the right to get the preparation to do anything your little heart desires.

I know I perform best in the buffet model -- that's the way to get the most out of me. Use the whip on me and you'll at best get a grudging slog through a day of forced labor or, if at all possible, you'll get me grabbing the whip, smiling, and starting in on you with a literal vengeance.

I understand that in our system many people are reduced to responding to the whip, but I think that's because slaves learn to be slaves. I realize that people have different tastes and different cognitive abilities and everybody isn't me, but I see all sorts of people every day bust their as-s doing things they want to -- families, hobbies, passions -- while being barely minimally compliant doing things they are forced to, and I think that's perfectly natural and rational behavior.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Ah the (obviously fake) Bernie supporters on Twitter have #DemExit trending (which is them saying they are leaving and not voting if Biden wins) and while they are obviously just Russian troll farms...it is amazing how much they sound like certain posters around here. (two in particular who seem to not be around this thread much anymore) Somewhat educated, using big words, no spelling errors, no grammatical screw ups, well thought out comments with a long history of posting.

Interesting...

(hint: THEY ARENT FAKE)

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Ah the (obviously fake) Bernie supporters on Twitter have #DemExit trending (which is them saying they are leaving and not voting if Biden wins) and while they are obviously just Russian troll farms...it is amazing how much they sound like certain posters around here. (two in particular who seem to not be around this thread much anymore) Somewhat educated, using big words, no spelling errors, no grammatical screw ups, well thought out comments with a long history of posting.

There was a story recently (the Atlantic maybe) about how the Russians micro-target individual Dumpies and send them crafted messages based on their posting history, subscriptions, and other info. So if Joe Bob likes guns you send him "news" that doesn't even mention Dump about "local sportsman's worries about confiscation," and if Wanda June is pro-life she's gets "news" about some Dem's statement about abortion. The statements don't have to be real; in fact the people in the stories can all be made up. It doesn't matter -- it further cements in the mind of the Dumpy their fears and prejudices, and keeps them on the hook.

Basically Fox News' business model for 2 decades. Build brand loyalty: for Fox it is to Fox, for the trolls it is to Dump.

They also spread stories to reduce the trust of the Dumpies in experts and in science in general. So, they send out reports where scientists reverse themselves on, say, some kind of cooking oil. Nothing else is mentioned, but the message is "experts are wrong all the time." That how they get their audience to stop believing in facts. The brand loyalty in this case is to chaos.

It's a brilliant campaign exploiting all the marketing techniques learned for the last hundred years to sell garbage.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I think this is a conflict between two competing views of human motivation: the whip and the buffet.

Some people think the way to get people to do things is to put them into a punishment situation if they don't. Negative reinforcement. This is the basis of our work ethos (work or starve).

Some people think the way to get people to do things is to put a buffet in front of them and say, "pick anything you want and thrive." No reinforcement either way, positive or negative. Just choice and freedom and the right to get the preparation to do anything your little heart desires.

I know I perform best in the buffet model -- that's the way to get the most out of me. Use the whip on me and you'll at best get a grudging slog through a day of forced labor or, if at all possible, you'll get me grabbing the whip, smiling, and starting in on you with a literal vengeance.

I understand that in our system many people are reduced to responding to the whip, but I think that's because slaves learn to be slaves. I realize that people have different tastes and different cognitive abilities and everybody isn't me, but I see all sorts of people every day bust their as-s doing things they want to -- families, hobbies, passions -- while being barely minimally compliant doing things they are forced to, and I think that's perfectly natural and rational behavior.

You have too much faith in humanity Kep. I don't. And after the people he was championing absolutely screwed Bernie Sanders by not showing up to vote, neither should Sanders himself. You can't trust people to do the right thing. You can hope they do, but you can't bet the mortgage that they will. Many, many, many people, more than either of us would like to admit, will do the bare minimum to get by. The more comfortable you make them, the less inclination they will have to strive for more. Regardless of all that though, you're trying to appeal to the majority of the electorate. Anybody who had to work to achieve something is going to look upon giving other people a free ride with scorn. Rightly or wrongly, but perception is 9/10ths reality.

So, should students get free tuition to state or community college? Sure as long as its means tested (I'm not paying for Chump's idiot kids for example). Should it pay for every degree? This is where it gets tough. Not sure a 4 year ride for a bachelor's degree in Elizabethan Literature is the best use of my tax dollars.

Should we expand healthcare access and lower costs? YES! Should everything except for nose jobs (to quote Sanders himself) be covered? Look, you have some responsibility to keep yourself healthy. You have some responsibility to earn a living especially if you have a family. The perception that people will collectively take advantage of these programs is why the Revolution is having trouble taking hold for the over 30 crowd.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I think people do as little as possible only when their choices are all sh-tty, and I don't blame them.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I think people do as little as possible only when their choices are all sh-tty, and I don't blame them.

Then why didn't they turn out and vote when they had a champion on the ballot with a realistic chance at winning? Do you at least blame them for that? Again, at what point, if any, do they take any responsibility for changing their fate?

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Just got my first text from the Bernie camp 15 mins ago. He's a little late.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Then why didn't they turn out and vote when they had a champion on the ballot with a realistic chance at winning? Do you at least blame them for that? Again, at what point, if any, do they take any responsibility for changing their fate?

Super Tuesday did not teach me that people passionately wanted a revolution but stayed home. It taught me they didn't passionately want a revolution.

My product failed in the marketplace. Sanders' version of reform did not succeed with the broad electorate whereas Obama's did. OK, I'm sad, but I'm not mad at anybody. I lost; I'm a Mets fan, I'll get over it. Maybe I'll find another product that I believe in that will succeed. I've got time. Er, some time.

 

[aparch]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

So I just watched the Biden clip (I didnt click on it when it first posted for fear he would get his a** handed to himself) and all I can make out is Biden going "...AR-15?" And then pats on the back to both gentlemen from the union workers flocked around them.

Amtrack Joe wasn't afraid to get mixed up in this, and it's good to see him still have fight.

 

[rufus]

The conservatives decided the right to amass an infinite amount of wealth is the only right that counts. That's why relatively intelligent albeit ignorant people will argue with a straight face that Democrats are against freedom and Republicans are for it.

Don't ferget the guns!!!

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

So I just watched the Biden clip (I didnt click on it when it first posted for fear he would get his a** handed to himself) and all I can make out is Biden going "...AR-15?" And then pats on the back to both gentlemen from the union workers flocked around them.

Amtrack Joe wasn't afraid to get mixed up in this, and it's good to see him still have fight.

Everyone should have the energy to fight these absolute brainless morons

 

[bronconick]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

Super Tuesday did not teach me that people passionately wanted a revolution but stayed home. It taught me they didn't passionately want a revolution.

My product failed in the marketplace. Sanders' version of reform did not succeed with the broad electorate whereas Obama's did. OK, I'm sad, but I'm not mad at anybody. I lost; I'm a Mets fan, I'll get over it. Maybe I'll find another product that I believe in that will succeed. I've got time. Er, some time.

I think the "Revolution" idea is a lot less appealing after three years of Trump dismantling the government, flooding the swamp into the streets, and shoveling judges through. A return to normalcy is very attractive when facing that. If the Republican opponent was a boring shlub, Sanders or his ideas might have had more of an opening.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

So I just watched the Biden clip (I didnt click on it when it first posted for fear he would get his a** handed to himself) and all I can make out is Biden going "...AR-15?" And then pats on the back to both gentlemen from the union workers flocked around them.

Amtrack Joe wasn't afraid to get mixed up in this, and it's good to see him still have fight.

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode when the voters are booing Mayor Quimby, and he says "I'm sick of you people, you're nothing but a bunch of fickle mush heads." They all look at each other and start cheering, and somebody shouts back "Give Us Hell, Quimby".

 

[Handyman]

Super Tuesday did not teach me that people passionately wanted a revolution but stayed home. It taught me they didn't passionately want a revolution.

My product failed in the marketplace. Sanders' version of reform did not succeed with the broad electorate whereas Obama's did. OK, I'm sad, but I'm not mad at anybody. I lost; I'm a Mets fan, I'll get over it. Maybe I'll find another product that I believe in that will succeed. I've got time. Er, some time.

It will work better when someone under seventy champions it in the future.

 

[aparch]

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode when the voters are booing Mayor Quimby, and he says "I'm sick of you people, you're nothing but a bunch of fickle mush heads." They all look at each other and start cheering, and somebody shouts back "Give Us Hell, Quimby".

Bwahahaha. Yep.


I'm sure it will come out just what they talked about, and I'm sure it won't do Joe any favors. Looked like lots of video being recorded.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Democratic Challengers 2020 - 12: The End of the Beginning

I don't think it's a freedom thing Kep but more of the views you're putting forth seem to completely absolve people from personal responsibility.

So, if college is free, no need to bust your @ ss to keep a scholarship. If healthcare is free, no need to stay in shape. If income is free (UBI), no need to be a productive citizen. If prison time is abolished for non-violent crime, no need to police your own behavior. Now you personally most likely believe in personal responsibility which is great, but when the masses see all these democratic socialist proposals the question of is anybody responsible for doing anything creeps up. Might also be why the young aren't turning out - its somebody else's responsibility, and not theirs, to vote Sanders into office to bring about these changes.

That’s a... bad take.

Super Tuesday did not teach me that people passionately wanted a revolution but stayed home. It taught me they didn't passionately want a revolution.

My product failed in the marketplace. Sanders' version of reform did not succeed with the broad electorate whereas Obama's did. OK, I'm sad, but I'm not mad at anybody. I lost; I'm a Mets fan, I'll get over it. Maybe I'll find another product that I believe in that will succeed. I've got time. Er, some time.

I really don’t know if the idea failed. This is an extraordinarily different election. Unlike any other in American history. And never conflate the candidate’s failure with the failure of the idea.

Sanders - or perhaps his followers, I don’t know - failed to deliver that successfully. We know that the most popular government programs are the social welfare programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. Even obamacare and the VA to some extent.

The person delivering the message has to be effective or the idea is just a stump speech that’s easily demonized.

Also, keep in mind, the number of crossover republicans voting in the democratic primaries was probably more substantial than we think. I know several people who haven’t voted for a Democrat in their life or even voted in a Republican primary who voted for a Democrat in a primary. That’s not insignificant.