Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

I had to go through this process to get my slug gun. Bought it online in Michigan, had to have it shipped to a gun shop here, in MN, to get the background check and take possession.

It's a key safety check that is often overlooked by anti-gun people. Once you know the process it's pretty simple to understand. It's just getting to that point that's the problem.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

How about this, the anti-gun crowd wants ideas on what can be done that we (the pro-gun people) would accept, so I'll propose a few items that I, personally, would be ok with. (no guarantees with flaggy, we all know he's a few doughnuts short of a dozen)

1. Get tougher on gun ownership responsibility. Make people liable when they make weapons they own available to people that commit violent crimes. This encourages people to lock up their guns, and be more responsible gun owners, and potentially keeps guns out of the hands of dangerous people.
2. Install a system to efficiently allow background checks for private gun sales, and encourage its use. As a gun owner, if I were to sell a gun, I'd use this voluntarily, as would many others.
3. Install an option for "Advanced" concealed carry permits. This would be a training that is the same, or very similar to the weapons training that police officers receive. It would be tough to pass. It would also allow citizens, that are very highly trained, to carry in the same locations off-duty police officers do.
4. Create a system to allows law enforcement to add people under investigation to a no-buy list (the felon list). This is tricky, because there needs to be adequate checks and balances, we cannot have people put on this list for no reason, with no way to get off of it. There needs to be a quick way to fight having your name on the list.

1. Yup. That "safe handling" are trigger words for me (pun intended).
2. We have this system in place (sorta) now for commercial sales, so, fine.
3. Where do I sign up? (I love it when I'm on the local range and out-shoot ND HP and Feds. Them, not so much. )
4. Indeed "tricky". Could be very good; could end up as bad as the no-fly lists keeping toddlers off planes. I'd favor if the "under challenge" condition of a name was off the list.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

4. Indeed "tricky". Could be very good; could end up as bad as the no-fly lists keeping toddlers off planes.

As someone who has flown a crap-ton and as a former employee of a very large airline, I don't know that keeping toddlers off planes is all that bad of an idea....

 

[SteveP]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Heck, Dan Rather reported Jim Brady died the day Reagan got shot. Hillary was under fire when she got off the helicopter in Bosnia. Millions believe an AR-15 is an assault rifle and that AR stands for "assault rifle."

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

FYP, but I agree with you completely.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

How about this, the anti-gun crowd wants ideas on what can be done that we (the pro-gun people) would accept, so I'll propose a few items that I, personally, would be ok with. (no guarantees with flaggy, we all know he's a few doughnuts short of a dozen)

1. Get tougher on gun ownership responsibility. Make people liable when they make weapons they own available to people that commit violent crimes. This encourages people to lock up their guns, and be more responsible gun owners, and potentially keeps guns out of the hands of dangerous people.
2. Install a system to efficiently allow background checks for private gun sales, and encourage its use. As a gun owner, if I were to sell a gun, I'd use this voluntarily, as would many others.
3. Install an option for "Advanced" concealed carry permits. This would be a training that is the same, or very similar to the weapons training that police officers receive. It would be tough to pass. It would also allow citizens, that are very highly trained, to carry in the same locations off-duty police officers do.
4. Create a system to allows law enforcement to add people under investigation to a no-buy list (the felon list). This is tricky, because there needs to be adequate checks and balances, we cannot have people put on this list for no reason, with no way to get off of it. There needs to be a quick way to fight having your name on the list.

1. Ban all Assault weapons (I need a better definition of assault weapons. It can't just be what people think looks scary or militaristic. Especially given the difference between an assault weapon and a semi-automatic rifle.) and limitations on high capacity magazines What is the proposed cap? I'd suggest 10-15.
2. Universal background checks on all gun sales Agreed.
3. Close the Charleston loophole: no firearm sale without a completed background check Agreed
4. Close the terror gap by prohibiting gun sales to those on the No-Fly list I think I need better definition here. I've always been squeamish about this. For someone to have their Constitutional rights taken away, it has to have a high standard. A very high standard. Take convicted felons as an example. Being convicted of a felony has a very high bar and there is an open and documented appeals process.
5. End the CDC ban on gun violence research I'm almost positive I'm in agreement here. What are the legitimate concerns with this research? I know this is asking a lot of some people, but if you respond, please be intelligent in your answer
6. Domestic violence restraining order to prevent abusers with a temporary restraining order from possessing firearms Temporary fine. I think. Again, this goes back to the high bar for removing a person's Constitutional right. There needs to be a cap on both one-time length and a cap on total length stemming from a single report/request. Basically, I would like to see a 30-day (or less) cap on the first time it's approved. Maximum 120 days overall. This can't be a permanent temproary order.
7. Repeal Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) No. In 99% of all cases, no.
8. Child access prevention law for safe storage of firearms I'm ok with this depending on what the constraints are.

I think most people will find that gun owners are ok with many of the proposed changes, see the posts above.

1. Universal background checks. 100%

2. I like bbdl's suggestion about the system to complete a background check on private sales. However, I'll go a step further and say it's use is required for any sale or transfer of ownership.

3. I'd propose a national permit to buy law for all handguns and semiautomatic rifles that qualify as "assault weapons". The permit must not be financially imposing. For example, the permit cannot cost $10,000. I'd propose something under $25 to cover administrative costs. Though I'm still somewhat uneasy about requiring a fee to purchase a gun. On it's face, I like Minnesota's law. The permit should be valid for one year. I don't understand why semiautomatic rifles can be bought by an 18-year-old but handguns can only be purchased by someone 21 or older. I would raise both of these to 21.

4. We need a more "inclusive" no-gun list. Like BBDL, the process must be open, evidence must be made available, and the list must have a speedy appeals process that is not stacked against the person. The ban must be renewed on a regular basis.

5. Mental illness disqualifications must be reviewed by an appropriate person or panel. They need to have a background and a degree (possibly advanced degree). I actually had a friend who was trying to buy a shotgun. He has a very common name and someone with that name had been declared mentally unstable in California. It took him months, maybe even close to a year, to get a gun. That's a problem.

6. Allow the CDC to study gun violence. Again, I don't understand the arguments here.

7. Enact safe storage laws. But this needs to be carefully worded. The SCOTUS has already ruled that requiring a gun to be locked and unloaded in a house is not Constitutional. If someone is found to have negligently or maliciously provided access to a gun to someone who commits a crime, that needs to be punished. Having a gun on display in your house without children present should be fine. Having a gun in your car should be fine if it's being legally transported (like when I keep mine in the trunk or under the back seat when going to trap). I would be interested to see what the SCOTUS's take is on requiring weapons to be locked when children are present and unsupervised.

8. Require firearms licenses for people who commercially 3D-print guns. This is really uncharted territory and we need to study this quite a bit more before enacting restrictions that wouldn't stand up to Constitutional scrutiny.

9. Apparently, federal law already bans possession of a firearm for anyone convicted of "qualified" domestic violence

10. Did I miss anything? Let's talk.

(There's some good stuff in this link: https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AssaultWeapons-report.pdf though I disagree with other parts.)

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

I think most people will find that gun owners are ok with many of the proposed changes, see the posts above.

1. Universal background checks. 100%

2. I like bbdl's suggestion about the system to complete a background check on private sales. However, I'll go a step further and say it's use is required for any sale or transfer of ownership.

3. I'd propose a national permit to buy law for all handguns and semiautomatic rifles that qualify as "assault weapons". The permit must not be financially imposing. For example, the permit cannot cost $10,000. I'd propose something under $25 to cover administrative costs. Though I'm still somewhat uneasy about requiring a fee to purchase a gun. On it's face, I like Minnesota's law. The permit should be valid for one year. I don't understand why semiautomatic rifles can be bought by an 18-year-old but handguns can only be purchased by someone 21 or older. I would raise both of these to 21.

4. We need a more "inclusive" no-gun list. Like BBDL, the process must be open, evidence must be made available, and the list must have a speedy appeals process that is not stacked against the person. The ban must be renewed on a regular basis.

5. Mental illness disqualifications must be reviewed by an appropriate person or panel. They need to have a background and a degree (possibly advanced degree). I actually had a friend who was trying to buy a shotgun. He has a very common name and someone with that name had been declared mentally unstable in California. It took him months, maybe even close to a year, to get a gun. That's a problem.

6. Allow the CDC to study gun violence. Again, I don't understand the arguments here.

7. Enact safe storage laws. But this needs to be carefully worded. The SCOTUS has already ruled that requiring a gun to be locked and unloaded in a house is not Constitutional. If someone is found to have negligently or maliciously provided access to a gun to someone who commits a crime, that needs to be punished. Having a gun on display in your house without children present should be fine. Having a gun in your car should be fine if it's being legally transported (like when I keep mine in the trunk or under the back seat when going to trap). I would be interested to see what the SCOTUS's take is on requiring weapons to be locked when children are present and unsupervised.

8. Require firearms licenses for people who commercially 3D-print guns. This is really uncharted territory and we need to study this quite a bit more before enacting restrictions that wouldn't stand up to Constitutional scrutiny.

9. Apparently, federal law already bans possession of a firearm for anyone convicted of "qualified" domestic violence

10. Did I miss anything? Let's talk.

(There's some good stuff in this link: https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AssaultWeapons-report.pdf though I disagree with other parts.)

Well said. Agree with everything posted.

In regards to #10: "Common Sense" needs to reign supreme with anything regarding this matter. If you choose to be a gun owner, you have to take responsibility. This means knowing what you can and can't do. People need to respect this!

Story time: I work for a sporting good retailer. Although I'm not in the firearms dept., I have to process the sale of ammo on a pretty regular basis. Several times each year, someone will lose their s*** because I have to deny a straw purchase on ammo. (In IL all ammo purchases require a valid FOID card.) This usually happens in a similar fashion each time: Guy A and Guy B come to the register together. Guy A goes through ringing out, but can't produce a valid FOID card cause he forgot it at home. I say I have to deny the sale and take away the ammo. Guy B then says that he has his FOID card, so put them on his tab. I can't legally do that since I know Guy A was the one who intended to purchase the ammo. People then proceed to flip their s***.

It's stuff like this that ticks me off. Guy A+B will be the 1st in line to protest any sort of gun regulation, but they don't respect the simple processes we have in place. They want to own guns but don't want the associated responsibility. This isn't a gun thing, but a general culture thing. Everyone wants to blame someone else instead of looking in the mirror. As gun owners, we need to look at ourselves and take steps to educate the masses that are too lazy or stupid to educate themselves.

This is why I feel that we need to start holding people accountable for all aspects of firearm ownership. You don't complete all aspects of a legal sale and that firearm proceeds to be used in a crime, you're responsible. Your 12 year old shoots his friend because you left a loaded weapon in the kitchen drawer, you're responsible.

Like I said, it's a general American cultural thing that is the problem. Unfortunately I don't have a remedy, but it needs to be addressed. We are a stupid, stupid society and that is a dangerous thing when it comes to firearms.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Well said. Agree with everything posted.

In regards to #10: "Common Sense" needs to reign supreme with anything regarding this matter. If you choose to be a gun owner, you have to take responsibility. This means knowing what you can and can't do. People need to respect this!

Story time: I work for a sporting good retailer. Although I'm not in the firearms dept., I have to process the sale of ammo on a pretty regular basis. Several times each year, someone will lose their s*** because I have to deny a straw purchase on ammo. (In IL all ammo purchases require a valid FOID card.) This usually happens in a similar fashion each time: Guy A and Guy B come to the register together. Guy A goes through ringing out, but can't produce a valid FOID card cause he forgot it at home. I say I have to deny the sale and take away the ammo. Guy B then says that he has his FOID card, so put them on his tab. I can't legally do that since I know Guy A was the one who intended to purchase the ammo. People then proceed to flip their s***.

It's stuff like this that ticks me off. Guy A+B will be the 1st in line to protest any sort of gun regulation, but they don't respect the simple processes we have in place. They want to own guns but don't want the associated responsibility. This isn't a gun thing, but a general culture thing. Everyone wants to blame someone else instead of looking in the mirror. As gun owners, we need to look at ourselves and take steps to educate the masses that are too lazy or stupid to educate themselves.

This is why I feel that we need to start holding people accountable for all aspects of firearm ownership. You don't complete all aspects of a legal sale and that firearm proceeds to be used in a crime, you're responsible. Your 12 year old shoots his friend because you left a loaded weapon in the kitchen drawer, you're responsible.

Like I said, it's a general American cultural thing that is the problem. Unfortunately I don't have a remedy, but it needs to be addressed. We are a stupid, stupid society and that is a dangerous thing when it comes to firearms.

Well, in defense of the mythical guys in your example, the laws in IL are really ****ing stupid, and would **** me off regularly if I lived there as well.

 

[jericho]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

So I see the "it didn't happen, the gubmint did this" conspiracy theorists on social media are out in full force. Linda Richman is feeling verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves, she'll give us a topic. Social media is neither Social nor Media. Discuss.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

So I see the "it didn't happen, the gubmint did this" conspiracy theorists on social media are out in full force. Linda Richman is feeling verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves, she'll give us a topic. Social media is neither Social nor Media. Discuss.

Link or GTFO. (Though I can well imagine.)

If some Christo-nut ever shoots up a mosque I fully expect 90% of Republicans and their entire Echo Chamber to believe it was a government hoax.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

So I see the "it didn't happen, the gubmint did this" conspiracy theorists on social media are out in full force. Linda Richman is feeling verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves, she'll give us a topic. Social media is neither Social nor Media. Discuss.

So, ... you're podcasting "Ground Zero with Clyde Lewis" ... (iHeart.com is awesome, eh?) ...

 

[jericho]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Link or GTFO. (Though I can well imagine.)

If some Christo-nut ever shoots up a mosque I fully expect 90% of Republicans and their entire Echo Chamber to believe it was a government hoax.

The only thing worse than that article are the comments on it. Then, (and it's happening with friends of mine on Facebook) when you refute said "facts", the response is "do your research." These people make even Flaggy look sane.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

The Dems are filibustering (not the GOP??!!)

AMA is calling for lifting the ban on CDC doing the research.

teh D is going to 'discuss with NRA' changes to exclude people on the no fly list. (why he needs to discuss with them I am unclear but I can see Wesson stock heading into the stratosphere!)

There is sane, intelligent conversation about what can change instead of who is stupid on this thread.

WTefff? I think I felt the world lurch to a stop.

And I think the suggestions here are great. Wish we could see the people who could do something about them do it.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Ok, so I watched the O'Reilly appearance on Colbert. That was interesting. Lots of good points made by the both of them.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

If some Christo-nut ever shoots up a mosque I fully expect 90% of Republicans and their entire Echo Chamber to believe it was a government hoax.

A Christofascist already shot-up Christian churches, and the word from Christian leaders was either mum, or "not a real Christian".

And yet, these are the same numbskulls that demand much higher standards from the Islamic community when one of their nutbars goes full retard...hmm, I smell a double standard.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

I'm just going to state right here, I've never used a semi-automatic firearm for hunting, nor have I ever felt the need to use, or own one. I'm not saying that this is a reason for a blanket ban on semi-automatics, but I am saying, I think the argument that they are "necessary" or even "beneficial" in the field is dubious at best, until I hear of some examples. People hunted game just fine for centuries without semi-automatics.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

I'm just going to state right here, I've never used a semi-automatic firearm for hunting, nor have I ever felt the need to use, or own one. I'm not saying that this is a reason for a blanket ban on semi-automatics, but I am saying, I think the argument that they are "necessary" or even "beneficial" in the field is dubious at best, until I hear of some examples. People hunted game just fine for centuries without semi-automatics.

Most guns (educated guess here) are semi's. One pull of trigger = one bang. There are some bolt action out there (please correct me if I'm wrong), but most guns are semi's.

 

[hockeyplayer1015]

Most guns (educated guess here) are semi's. One pull of trigger = one bang. There are some bolt action out there (please correct me if I'm wrong), but most guns are semi's.

You also have pump action (primarily shotguns, but there are some rifles with it). There are also lever action rifles.

I don't know the stats, too lazy to look them up, but I'd probably agree that semi-automatic is likely found more often than the other actions.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

You also have pump action (primarily shotguns, but there are some rifles with it). There are also lever action rifles.

I don't know the stats, too lazy to look them up, but I'd probably agree that semi-automatic is likely found more often than the other actions.

I figured pump-action is mostly shotguns, not gonna hold up in a mass-shooting. That's mostly a one-and-done. Either way, the railers against the ARs mostly have no idea how guns work. I don't know a lot, but I think I know enough to comment.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

The first gun I ever shot was a semiautomatic rifle with a five or ten-round clip. It was up at scout camp.

I take that back. It may have been the second I've ever shot. The first was definitely a bolt.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

The first gun I ever shot was a semiautomatic rifle with a five or ten-round clip. It was up at scout camp.

I take that back. It may have been the second I've ever shot. The first was definitely a bolt.

I have shot a bolt action, a 30-odd-6, and a .357, all in Scouts. Haven't shot a gun since then. No need, no uber-desire (I loved to shoot, but not enough to go out and do that activity).