Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

[St. Clown]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Do all triggers act alike, or are there differences? In other words, if I can fire gun X four times in a second, will I necessarily be able to fire gun Y at the same speed? Or are some made to be fired more rapidly than others? Assuming both are semi-automatic.

In other words, is it entirely dependent on the human, or do the mechanics of the gun play a role?

Some triggers fire with less movement than others. Still, as The Sicatoka provided with that video, a man can still fire a long triggered revolver (revolvers are generally slower to fire than those guns that hold their rounds in the handle, and longer triggers also slow down the action) eight times in a single second.

 

[hockeyplayer1015]

Do all triggers act alike, or are there differences? In other words, if I can fire gun X four times in a second, will I necessarily be able to fire gun Y at the same speed? Or are some made to be fired more rapidly than others? Assuming both are semi-automatic.

In other words, is it entirely dependent on the human, or do the mechanics of the gun play a role?

Well, some guns have a "lighter" pull weight, some "heavier". Some have a longer "range" to engage the firing mechanism. There are honestly quite a few variables to be able to answer your question(s), as it is different for all firearms.

Of course, "slapping" the trigger, as one tends to do with a shotgun more than a rifle ("squeezing" the trigger is more common with rifles, as it enhances accuracy/precision) can take care of most pull "weight" differences.

 

[SonofSouthie]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Stop using the argument that a fire would've been just as effective. Given the fact that fire codes and fire departments exist and the fact that a fire would give people several minutes of reaction time versus the milliseconds of a gun, it's a silly argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

 

[hockeyplayer1015]

Will have to post this again (and again). This former military officer says the AR 15 fires about 180 rounds a minute. Even with a 30 magazine...that's 30 casualties.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-round...ire-per-minute

Bad link, but having already looked at it when you previously posted it, he felt it was reasonable that the 180 rounds/minute was able to be attained, but never said it could actually be done. As I countered, you would likely overheat/jam before then, let alone muscle fatigue and reloading. You could quite likely reach very similar levels (whatever those may be) with any semi-automatic weapon.

For the record, for sustained firing, most manufacturer, and military, recommendations is 12-15 rounds per minute.

Not sure if one Mexico City gun shop provides 30-40% of the guns...especially when they're primarily used near the US border. The broader point is that guns are causing widespread death on both sides of the border.

Or, you know, also smuggled from other countries.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

I was about to mention that very thing. Just because the fire codes exist doesn't mean the club is safe.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Here's the link on AR 15's high rate of fire by a former military officer...updated an hour ago:

Since the cycle time of the weapon is faster than the speed at which you can pull the trigger, the answer is that it can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Technically, the AR-15 fires 800 rounds a minute (source: Wikipedia), which is 13.3 rounds per second. This is the “cycle rate” of the weapon, assuming it could be fired as fast as physically possible and had a bottomless magazine. We know that fanning your index finger is going to be much slower than that, so saying 180 rounds per minute is actually a very, very reasonable number. Except that you'd never get there, because you can only fire 30 (or 10 in Colorado, or 7 in New York) rounds from a standard magazine.

In Air Force Security Forces duties protecting stateside assets, I would routinely carry four magazines (three in a belt pouch and one in the weapon) for a total of 120 rounds.

A clip of 30 would cause devastation...and he says he would carry four magazines.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-rounds-does-a-semi-automatic-rifle-fire-per-minute

And take a look at this clip. It shows that an AR 15 can easily reach this rate of fire.

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/

We need to ban weapons capable of this.

 

[GrinCDXX]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

I was about to mention that very thing. Just because the fire codes exist doesn't mean the club is safe.

Alright, so is the fire code pointless?

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Will have to post this again (and again). This former military officer says the AR 15 fires about 180 rounds a minute. Even with a 30 magazine...that's 30 casualties.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-round...ire-per-minute

The only pack this type of fire power kills is humans. You can see the AR 15 in action in this clip.

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/

We need to ban weapons capable of this.

Your first link is bad; and, your math has a problem. Say your 180 rpm is accurate (and I still don't believe that due to mechanical constraints, like heat), and a 30 round magazine, that's 1/6 of a minute to empty the magazine -- 10 seconds. Very few will get onto 30 targets in 10 seconds. (Not saying, just saying.)

I've seen an AR with a bump stock. I do have a problem with that; that to me is a mechanical modification to make an automatic weapon.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Alright, so is the fire code pointless?

No, we need to stop the Pollyanna beliefs that laws, codes, registrations, and regulation is panacea.

 

[unofan]

No, we need to stop the Pollyanna beliefs that laws, codes, registrations, and regulation is panacea.

Likewise, the other side needs to recognize that we are a nation of laws, codes, registrations, and regulations and stop pretending that they serve no purpose.

 

[SonofSouthie]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Alright, so is the fire code pointless?

No.

Check out the investigation of the fire and you'll see mistakes were made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire#Investigation

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

We need to ban weapons capable of this.

No, no we don't.

It is a semi-automatic rifle, if you are banning this, based on this information, a wide swath of semi-automatic hunting rifles, potentially shotguns, handguns, all revolvers would be outlawed. It cannot happen.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

You don't seem to fight any other restrictions on any other amendment as you do the 2nd. Here's your opportunity to speak out for the rest. Go for it. That's my point. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite.

Maybe it's because there are numerous challenges to that amendment on here, but not the other ones, at least in the threads I participate? If someone wants to talk about a restriction to an amendment, I'd be more than happy to cross-examine that person's claim. How about how most traffic courts violate the 7th amendment? Perhaps a violation of the 8th amendment with "mandatory minimums", applied both federally and with the states (10th amendment provision)? "No-knock raids" typically violating the 4th amendment, as they usually don't have warrants? Let me know if you'd like me to go on.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Likewise, the other side needs to recognize that we are a nation of laws, codes, registrations, and regulations and stop pretending that they serve no purpose.

They serve purpose when they are respected. And there's the core issue: Respect the laws we already have.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Say your 180 rpm is accurate (and I still don't believe that due to mechanical constraints, like heat), and a 30 round magazine, that's 1/6 of a minute to empty the magazine -- 10 seconds. Very few will get onto 30 targets in 10 seconds. (Not saying, just saying.)

I've seen an AR with a bump stock. I do have a problem with that; that to me is a mechanical modification to make an automatic weapon.

Below's the link and its not my math. The problem with the weapon is that in hunting...there is no way that you can hit 30 targets in 10 seconds. In a crowded night club or a mall...you can definitely hit 30 targets in ten seconds. Also based on posters on AR.com, one can reload a magazine in about 3 seconds.

So for AR 15, one second to fire 30 rounds, a handful of seconds to reload, one second to fire. The argument this is not that dangerous is bs.

Here's the link on AR 15's high rate of fire by a former military officer...updated an hour ago:

Since the cycle time of the weapon is faster than the speed at which you can pull the trigger, the answer is that it can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Technically, the AR-15 fires 800 rounds a minute (source: Wikipedia), which is 13.3 rounds per second. This is the “cycle rate” of the weapon, assuming it could be fired as fast as physically possible and had a bottomless magazine. We know that fanning your index finger is going to be much slower than that, so saying 180 rounds per minute is actually a very, very reasonable number. Except that you'd never get there, because you can only fire 30 (or 10 in Colorado, or 7 in New York) rounds from a standard magazine.

In Air Force Security Forces duties protecting stateside assets, I would routinely carry four magazines (three in a belt pouch and one in the weapon) for a total of 120 rounds.

A clip of 30 would cause devastation...and he says he would carry four magazines.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-rounds-does-a-semi-automatic-rifle-fire-per-minute

And take a look at this clip. It shows that an AR 15 can easily reach this rate of fire.

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/

We need to ban weapons capable of this.

No, no we don't.

It is a semi-automatic rifle, if you are banning this, based on this information, a wide swath of semi-automatic hunting rifles, potentially shotguns, handguns, all revolvers would be outlawed. It cannot happen.

Maybe the solution to our problem is greater than we thought. Slight mods to guns and they would be just as useful for hunting and self defense, and much less so for mass murder.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Not sure I understand the argument of the last couple of pages.

Of course the gun was invented as a tool of warfare, with a design to kill people. Humans found a secondary use in the form of hunting. Sharpshooting competitions similarly followed.

But that doesn't make the gun inherently evil, or justify limiting its access no more than early medical uses of cocaine justify widespread distribution today. Like scissors and knives and and chainsaws and thousands of other things, guns are simply inanimate objects that are capable of being misused to the point of life threatening danger to the user, another party or both.

Medicine has a ton of regulation. When they figure out meds cause bad things to happen they regulate the poop out of them. Work in medicine. Have no problem with that. The med is not inherently evil but there is no reason to give unlimited access and a whole lot of argument and research occurs if things go bad. Wouldn't a little research in our country on this topic be nice. I am confused why people who support no regulation don't want to do research to see if it would make a difference. If it wouldn't then it would be so much easier to support the case for no regulation!

Fastest revolver shooter in the world can pull eight times (accurately) in one second. That's faster than some automatic weapons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

Cool! Not sure this is pertinent. I would imagine most people aren't that good.

Not in North Dakota. However, a North Dakota retailer is only allowed to sell handguns to North Dakota citizens. (Snarky comment here about Minnesotans. )

Is there anything preventing them from transferring ownership?

There isn't an amendment that requires a voter ID, but many states REQUIRE a voter ID, and somehow, that's ok.

Still, the argument is more about the larger concept of regulation, not a specific idea of IDs. Seems like that concept it totally lost.

Why is it so freaking hard to want to come up with ideas and rules to reduce the scale of mass shootings??? I just don't get that. You get so lost in the details that the big picture is totally lost.

How about this, the anti-gun crowd wants ideas on what can be done that we (the pro-gun people) would accept, so I'll propose a few items that I, personally, would be ok with. (no guarantees with flaggy, we all know he's a few doughnuts short of a dozen)

1. Get tougher on gun ownership responsibility. Make people liable when they make weapons they own available to people that commit violent crimes. This encourages people to lock up their guns, and be more responsible gun owners, and potentially keeps guns out of the hands of dangerous people.
2. Install a system to efficiently allow background checks for private gun sales, and encourage its use. As a gun owner, if I were to sell a gun, I'd use this voluntarily, as would many others.
3. Install an option for "Advanced" concealed carry permits. This would be a training that is the same, or very similar to the weapons training that police officers receive. It would be tough to pass. It would also allow citizens, that are very highly trained, to carry in the same locations off-duty police officers do.
4. Create a system to allows law enforcement to add people under investigation to a no-buy list (the felon list). This is tricky, because there needs to be adequate checks and balances, we cannot have people put on this list for no reason, with no way to get off of it. There needs to be a quick way to fight having your name on the list.

w00t! just when I lost faith. I wish this could be discussed in the 'real world'. Would also, like I said above, like to see some research to look at the dynamics of why people do this kind of stuff. People are so caught up on being on one side or the other it is very hard to sort through the facts.

Someone previously posted a list of incidents in other countries but they are anomalies for those countries. Something just happened again in France but the response to it is so different from here.

Sources I'm seeing state 60-70% of weapons smuggled in from the US. Building a wall would lower that number drastically. Thus, we should build the wall.

Ha. When they export large portions of those lawless, horrible rapists maybe they would bring all thier guns back to keep the flow going? (sarcasm, even if it is in bad taste)

Well, some guns have a "lighter" pull weight, some "heavier". Some have a longer "range" to engage the firing mechanism. There are honestly quite a few variables to be able to answer your question(s), as it is different for all firearms.

Of course, "slapping" the trigger, as one tends to do with a shotgun more than a rifle ("squeezing" the trigger is more common with rifles, as it enhances accuracy/precision) can take care of most pull "weight" differences.

I am learning a lot on here (and seeing some really amazing feats of armed prowess)

 

[Handyman]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

How about this, the anti-gun crowd wants ideas on what can be done that we (the pro-gun people) would accept, so I'll propose a few items that I, personally, would be ok with. (no guarantees with flaggy, we all know he's a few doughnuts short of a dozen)

1. Get tougher on gun ownership responsibility. Make people liable when they make weapons they own available to people that commit violent crimes. This encourages people to lock up their guns, and be more responsible gun owners, and potentially keeps guns out of the hands of dangerous people.
2. Install a system to efficiently allow background checks for private gun sales, and encourage its use. As a gun owner, if I were to sell a gun, I'd use this voluntarily, as would many others.
3. Install an option for "Advanced" concealed carry permits. This would be a training that is the same, or very similar to the weapons training that police officers receive. It would be tough to pass. It would also allow citizens, that are very highly trained, to carry in the same locations off-duty police officers do.
4. Create a system to allows law enforcement to add people under investigation to a no-buy list (the felon list). This is tricky, because there needs to be adequate checks and balances, we cannot have people put on this list for no reason, with no way to get off of it. There needs to be a quick way to fight having your name on the list.

All of that seems pretty good to me. I am sure a few will tell us though this is step one towards Obama coming to take all your guns though

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Is there anything preventing them from transferring ownership?

Any private sale that crosses state lines must go through an FFL in the buyer's home state. That means that the seller must send the firearm to the FFL. The FFL then must preform a background before allowing the buyer to take possession of the firearm. Going through an FFL also puts a check in place since they must meet all laws within that state before passing off the firearm. What this prevents is buying a firearm that is illegal in your state through a dealer in another state. It's a very important "safety check" in place since laws vary state to state.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Any private sale that crosses state lines must go through an FFL in the buyer's home state. That means that the seller must send the firearm to the FFL. The FFL then must preform a background before allowing the buyer to take possession of the firearm. Going through an FFL also puts a check in place since they must meet all laws within that state before passing off the firearm. What this prevents is buying a firearm that is illegal in your state through a dealer in another state. It's a very important "safety check" in place since laws vary state to state.

I had to go through this process to get my slug gun. Bought it online in Michigan, had to have it shipped to a gun shop here, in MN, to get the background check and take possession.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Days Since Last Mass Shooting: 0 - II

Had there been a restriction on the gun, it's likely that the number dead would be fewer. Fewer rounds in a clip is a good start, a rate of fire limit would be a good thing, a speed of clip change limit would be a good thing- none of those would change the legal use of an automatic weapon, realistically.

I don't think people are saying that the crime itself would have been prevented, but the scale of it probably would be changed. And that would be a good thing.

Why does the measure of a law have to be 100% when you and everyone else knows that 100% is not possible?

(then again, I'd like to repeat that women should feel more empowered to turn in abuse. If that allegation was true, and the first wife turned him in, it's likely that none of this would have happened by this guy)

This isn't meant to be snarky, but I assume you mean semiautomatic, right?