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D1 Athletic Scholarships

Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

Are you saying those two things are mutually exclusive at an Ivy League institution? :eek: :p

Heh - I admit I spent a little time Googling so I could make that very joke. But I couldn't find a Nobel who played Ivy football. I found one who played at Swarthmore(?) and one who played at Stanford, but those didn't really work...
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

I believe that Union started the foreign student program about four years ago. If that's the case, the increased success that Union has had over that time period is probably not a coincidence.

Not for nothing, but the U hockey team has been getting it done in the class room as well.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

No, as the plain meaning of "need-based" implies, the scholarships are based upon financial need, not academic achievement.

Case in point, Dartmouth now offers free tuition to every student with a family income of less than $75,000. That is the sole condition for that particular form of need based-aid.



Athletic scholarships are only guaranteed for your freshman year when you sign a letter of intent. They can be taken away at any point thereafter.

Now most coaches dont take them away mainly out of self-interest (get a reputation for doing that, and other coaches will definitely use it against you when recruiting), but it happens way more often than you'd think.

Dartmouth does not waive its entrance requirements (including academic achievement) to every kid whose family makes less than $75K. I think the actual situation is that Dartmouth may offer free tuition to every student ADMITTED INTO DARTMOUTH whose family income is below a certain level. It's fairly safe to assume that admission into Dartmouth continues to rely heavily upon an applicant's academic achievement and academic potential, while it remains true that athlete applicants to Bubba U. and similar schools are awarded scholarships even if they display no academic potential - such as an SAT score of 600 (=zero).
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

Dartmouth does not waive its entrance requirements (including academic achievement) to every kid whose family makes less than $75K. I think the actual situation is that Dartmouth may offer free tuition to every student ADMITTED INTO DARTMOUTH whose family income is below a certain level. It's fairly safe to assume that admission into Dartmouth continues to rely heavily upon an applicant's academic achievement and academic potential, while it remains true that athlete applicants to Bubba U. and similar schools are awarded scholarships even if they display no academic potential - such as an SAT score of 600 (=zero).

no, you are wrong.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

Dartmouth does not waive its entrance requirements (including academic achievement) to every kid whose family makes less than $75K. I think the actual situation is that Dartmouth may offer free tuition to every student ADMITTED INTO DARTMOUTH whose family income is below a certain level. It's fairly safe to assume that admission into Dartmouth continues to rely heavily upon an applicant's academic achievement and academic potential, while it remains true that athlete applicants to Bubba U. and similar schools are awarded scholarships even if they display no academic potential - such as an SAT score of 600 (=zero).

Wow.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

At least at RIT (and I imagine at Union as well) like at most D-III schools, they do offer academic scholarships or grants to athletes as long as they are academically eligible (in theory) and not awarded at any higher of a rate to athletes than to the general student population. That is where some D-III programs (Geneseo) have gotten in trouble by awarding the "Scholarships for Canadiens" (or whatever they are called) to the hockey team, but to apparently not as many other students.

Let's be honest here. Many DIII Hockey schools like Plattsburgh, Oswego, Geneseo, Buffalo State, etc. aren't all that far from Canada. Plattsburgh and Oswego give grants to all International Students. Buffalo State and Geneseo were specifying all canadian students. In fact, this grant system was something mandated system-wide for the SUNY schools, although the schools implemented it differently (as I just described).

The difference here? Plattsburgh and Oswego were already getting a bunch of Canadian Students, athlete or not, while Geneseo and Buffalo State were not (despite their locations near Canada). So, those schools that were getting Canadian Students chose to spread out the money across the international spectrum (admittedly, giving a larger amount to Canadians than most others), while the others chose to use it attract Canadian students, regardless of athletic status.

As it so happened, the hockey coaches of all 4 schools were already recruiting in Canada (duh). All those teams pulled in student-athletes from Canada that they likely would have regardless of the grants. Oswego and Plattsburgh also pulled in the non-athlete Canadians they would have anyway, and likely many more non-Canadian international students because of the spread of the grants. Geneseo and Buffalo State, on the other hand, failed to increase their overall profile in Canada with the grant money, and continued to pull in few (if any) non-athlete Canadians.

Geneseo and Buffalo State were not sanctioned because they intentionally tried to circumvent the rules on athletic scholarships. They were sanctioned because a grant disproportionately, and at time exclusively, applied to student-athletes, thus creating a de facto athletic scholarship. If anything, the hockey teams were punished because the admissions department were not diligent enough in promoting the school in the land to the north.

Unfortunately, this is a fine line that almost all DIII schools, and I'm sure a few non-scholarship DI schools, walk. Do the schools create the grants programs to help recruiting for hockey? No. But does that mean a hockey coach can't mention it, since it does provide him with a bit of a bargaining chip? Absolutely not.

It is a much safer process for higher-profile schools, such as the Ivies, as well as schools who are particularly known in Canada, even if it is only in regions of Canada that happen to be nearby, such as Plattsburgh, Oswego, and RIT. It is a very dangerous gambit for schools like Geneseo and Buff State, who were unfortunately not very recognizable amangst canadian student
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

OK, to be honest as you request, I did not say anything to contradict any of what you described. I just happened to generalize what you detailed in your post.

My bad. I guess I misread you post. Thought you were implying that the school intentionally designed the grants with the intent of helping recruit for hockey:o
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

The schools that offer need-based financial support are not limited by the number of athletic scholarships that other schools are. In the ECAC, schools like Dartmouth, Harvard, etc. can build a deeper roster as they are not limited to 18 scholarships, like Clarkson, SLU, etc. Dartmouth, Harvard can offer financial support to all of their players, but other schools in the ECAC can't.

A full athletic scholarship (rarer than most folks think as many schools offer partial rides to a significant portion of their roster) still attractive as need-based financial support not likely to cover all costs.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

The schools that offer need-based financial support are not limited by the number of athletic scholarships that other schools are. In the ECAC, schools like Dartmouth, Harvard, etc. can build a deeper roster as they are not limited to 18 scholarships, like Clarkson, SLU, etc. Dartmouth, Harvard can offer financial support to all of their players, but other schools in the ECAC can't.

Sorry, but this makes no sense. A school like Clarkson, etc. can offer 18 athletic scholarships and then need-based scholarships on top of that. They can make their roster 18 players deeper for the same outlay of need-based scholarships. (That their pockets aren't as deep as some of the schools with big endowments is another matter.)
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

The schools that offer need-based financial support are not limited by the number of athletic scholarships that other schools are. In the ECAC, schools like Dartmouth, Harvard, etc. can build a deeper roster as they are not limited to 18 scholarships, like Clarkson, SLU, etc. Dartmouth, Harvard can offer financial support to all of their players, but other schools in the ECAC can't.

Sure they can. Nothing is preventing Clarkson, SLU, Michigan, Minnesota or anyone else from offering need-based financial support as well, except for their own finances.
 
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Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

Dartmouth does not waive its entrance requirements (including academic achievement) to every kid whose family makes less than $75K. I think the actual situation is that Dartmouth may offer free tuition to every student ADMITTED INTO DARTMOUTH whose family income is below a certain level. It's fairly safe to assume that admission into Dartmouth continues to rely heavily upon an applicant's academic achievement and academic potential, while it remains true that athlete applicants to Bubba U. and similar schools are awarded scholarships even if they display no academic potential - such as an SAT score of 600 (=zero).

Even though you're clearly trolling at this point...no **** sherlock. Dartmouth only offers financial aid to students who actually matriculate? Wow, what a profound insight.

That still doesn't mean need-based scholarships are a subset of academic scholarships. The former is based entirely on financial hardship. The latter is based on academic performance.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

Sure they can. Nothing is preventing Clarkson, SLU, Michigan, Minnesota or anyone else from offering need-based financial support as well, except for their own finances.

As well as other types of aid. According to rumor, RPI has a couple of players receiving minority aid.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

Sure they can. Nothing is preventing Clarkson, SLU, Michigan, Minnesota or anyone else from offering need-based financial support as well, except for their own finances.

. . . which are a pretty major hurdle, of course. Ivy League schools could just decide not to charge tuition to anybody (a concept which has been seriously discussed at more than one school) if they wanted to. Then they could have 25 hockey players attending for free if they chose to. Without taking it to that extreme, they are in a position to offer significantly more financial aid in general than are most other schools, especially some of the smaller schools that have been mentioned. Princeton already guarantees that if you're willing to kick in your defined share based on income, they'll pick up the rest so that you don't have to take out any loans.

All that having been said, the Ivies still have their admission standards to adhere to, so even if they did decided to let everybody in for free, you still couldn't play hockey there if you couldn't get past admissions. They can't and wouldn't just admit the first 20 NHL draft picks that showed up at the door.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

I'm sure one of 'em would look for a way to try! :p


Perhaps the NCAA shoud shift their focus from So Cal and the SEC to the Ivy
League, and from committed violations to potential violations.

The fact remains that the Ivies maintain quite rigorous entrance requirements, more than a zero on an admssion exam for example, while unfortunately some other schools are happy to accept and even award scholarships to applicants with few academic credentials or desires but superior athletic skills.

Do the Ivies want to recruit superior athletes? You betcha. Do the Ivies give admission preference to applicants with athletic talents? Absolutely. They also give admission preference to talented musicians, artists, linguists, and those with a host of other talents. No matter what skills Ivy applicants posess, including athletic proficiency, they must satisfy minimum academic expectations to gain admission. After all, these are academic institutions, not pro sports training centers. Once an applicant demonstrates academic potential then scholarship assistance becomes available to needy students.
The minimum SAT score of 600 at Bubba U. is not an academic expectation, it is the antethesis of an academic expectation.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

The horse is dead. In spite of a mountain of evidence to the contrary, you insist that this is a problem. There are REAL things that need fixing in hockey. Teams that put in your type of player WILL have to answer to the NCAA when they cannot do the work. And I can bet that teams that can garner that kind of talent will NOT like the consequences.
 
Re: D1 Athletic Scholarships

The horse is dead. In spite of a mountain of evidence to the contrary, you insist that this is a problem. There are REAL things that need fixing in hockey. Teams that put in your type of player WILL have to answer to the NCAA when they cannot do the work. And I can bet that teams that can garner that kind of talent will NOT like the consequences.

Here's a question. What, according to Bear Red, is NOT a problem?!
 
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