dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
What's more than a few?
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Covfefe-19 The 12th Part: The Only Thing Worse Than This New Board Is TrumpVirus2020
- Thread starter Handyman
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What's more than a few?
MichVandal
Well-known member
Do the math. Without ANY actions like masking, social distancing, working from home, etc- the flu killed 1/10 of what COVID has with massive amounts of mitigation outside of vaccines. The flu never really overwhelmed any hospital in the country, let alone all of them at the same time, around the world.
So, no, I didn't get a flu vaccine. This risk is very different. Not sure why it's not ok to adjust one's knowledge based on the situation.
One other difference- the flu didn't face a bunch of people claiming it wasn't real, or that the vaccine is either not needed or deadly, and when schools had to close due to a lot students with the flu- there wasn't angry mobs at school boards. Most of what I see here is shaming of those people. The ones actively fighting reality.
COVID isn't the flu. And the best way to get back to the flu kind of numbers is via a vaccine.
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One stupid Fock
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psych
Well-known member
It’s quite possible that a future flu season or ten will make Covid numbers look like flu numbers. Now, if more people were annually vaccinated against the flu, the number of hosts for it to infect would shrink, lengthening the process in its pursuit of killing perfection.
I only regularly started receiving flu vaccinations within the last five or so years, so I can’t even remotely claim to stand on the high ground on this one. That said, saying that the current variations of Covid are worse than current variations of the flu means there is no need to get vaccinated against the flu, that doesn’t make any sense. Barring a legitimate, valid medical reason for not getting a flu vaccine, and you might, I won’t claim to know you, it’s hard to come up with a good reason why you don’t get the flu vaccine. No shaming or judgment implied. Viruses mutate. Vaccinate to slow the mutation.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
You'd be wrong. Other than the medically exempted, the only people not getting the vaccine are morons who aren't getting it because they're too stupid to choose science over their cult leaders. There is no logical reason not to get the vaccine if you can. That the Right can't see this is exactly why they're unfit to make decisions in an adult community.
busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
Just to be be that I am understanding you correctly, what you are saying is that you feel that the risk of contracting influenza does not justify the risks of receiving the vaccination for you? In other words, you have concluded that the potential benefit that you would obtain from the vaccine are not worth the potential risks. If that's not what you meant, then I'll apologize in advance but please clarify it for me. If it is, then:
The vast majority of reasons to get vaccinated can be distilled down to two main reasons (at least in my opinion)
1. To protect yourself from the disease that you are being vaccinated against
2. To better protect and serve "the Herd" (protecting those at risk, economic reasons, access, etc.)
In most, but not all, the risks of vaccination is low. I mean really low. But there are definite risks involved. Most vaccines have the risk of pain and fever but these are no big deal. However, vaccines can also carry the risks of things like anaphylaxis, GBS, or TTS. Those things can kill you or cause significant morbidity. Again, the risks involved with vaccination are extremely low but in some people, those very low risks are perceived as being equal or greater than contracting the illness (influenza being a good example due to it's fairly low lethality/morbidity). You have seemingly made this choice concerning flu vaccination.
Next, one has to decide if those low risks are worth taking in order to help "the Herd". This can be a tough question. Am I willing to take that risk just to help my fellow man? It's an easy decision when you, yourself are at high risk from the illness but not so easy when you aren't. Currently the young are at very limited risk from COVID but have a seemingly higher risk of myocarditis and TTS from vaccination. Based on current stats, it is not necessarily wrong for a 20 y/o healthy female to conclude that getting infected with COVID is less than the risk of getting vaccinated (assuming that she is not concerned with helping "the Herd"). Her risks are extremely low either way so why should she get a shot just to help me out? Sure COVID is far more lethal than influenza but not necessarily to her. Should we force her to get a COVID vaccine to protect others from that increased lethality when her risk from the jab is similar to her risk of the disease? Why then, shouldn't we force you to get a Influenza vaccine for the same reasons? Both of you have decided that Reason 1 is far more important in your decision process than Reason 2 is.
Now, don't misconstrue the above as me being any way, shape, or form an anti-vaxxer. I just think that there can be a rational decision made to not get a vaccine. It's selfish as f***, but I can respect it. Just be prepared to live (or die) with the consequences. To me, the answer to forcing the 20 y/o female to get a COVID vaccine and you to get a flu vaccine is yes. Yes, vaccines should be mandatory for the benefit of "the Herd" (assuming no true medical contra-indications). You can choose not to take the mandatory vaccination should you wish. We will be happy to provide you comfort measures should you contract the illness.
TLDR: Don't biotch if someone opts not to get a COVID vaccine and you make a similar decision about the flu vaccine.
busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
Yes, yes I know. ALL the world's problem are caused by the Right just like ALL your posts remind us of that regardless of the subject at hand. Now. Sit up straight. Try not to be so nervous. Later on we'll get ice cream.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
The doctor wouldn't give her Ivermectin...
Personally I say give them the dewormer...make their suffering even worse.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Ahem
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
We are going to surpass annual flu deaths for all of 2022 by January 20th. But sure, go on about them being equivalent.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
There is differences between this vaccine and the flu vaccine. It is not an apples to apples comparison and I know you know that. The COVID vaccines are made to attack COVID and its variants. (and can be updated) The flu vaccine is a highly educated guess that is no guarantee to really stop the flu since there are so many different versions out there.
I am not arguing for or against the flu vaccine mind you just saying they are not the same thing.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
Mortality & Morbidity: COVID illness ≠ Influenza illness
Risks & Benefits: COVID vaccine ≠ Influenza vaccine
However:
Principle reasons to get COVID vaccine = Principle reasons to get Influenza vaccine
Decision process(are the benefits worth the risks) to decide on getting COVID vaccine = Decision process(are the benefits worth the risks) to decide on getting Influenza vaccine
*Feel free to exchange COVID and/or Influenza with Zoster, MMR, DPT, Polio, Pneumonia, etc.
IIRC, we've had a similar discussion about this in the past. You have chosen not to receive a flu vaccine for reasons that you feel are valid. In making that decision you decided that:
[Risks/benefits to you from vaccine] ≥ [Risks of you contracting Dz] ≤ [potential benefit to society] ∴ vaccine is not warranted
However for COVID you have seemingly decided that:
[Risks of you contracting Dz] ≥ [Risks/benefits to you from vaccine] ≤ [potential benefit to society] ∴ vaccine is warranted
While I may disagree with the results (I think that the risks from the shots are very, very low and the potential benefits to the person and to the herd are high.), I respect that decision making process. What I don't respect is someone (not saying you) that used the same decision making process that you used for the flu vaccine biotching about someone who did the same with COVID (despite what our resident experts says, one can make a good statistical argument in certain individuals that the risks of a COVID vaccine IS greater than them contracting the Dz). It's hypocritical IMO.
FYI. I had to put in additional hours yesterday as my daytime counterpart just tested positive despite receiving his third booster in October. I guess that I could just explain to him that: The COVID vaccine is a highly educated guess that is no guarantee to really stop the COVID since there are so many different versions out there. (Sorry, I forget how to strike words)
[Sarcasm] Yes, my entire diatribe was based on COVID and the flu being equivalent.[/Sarcasm]
That's nowhere close to what I'm saying. C'mon dx, you're better than that.
See above
ETA:
>1<7.9 billion
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rufus
rock and roller
It's what I don't understand about sports. You see all the time, four or five hockey or bouncy-ball players miss a game or three because they came down with the flu, or you'll have the flu run through an entire team over the course of a week or two.
Why don't these players just get the flu shot? Why don't the teams insist upon it?
MichVandal
Well-known member
Buster- it's not the risk, it's the effort that we've not gotten the influenza vaccine before.
Again, it's not just a risk of death thing- when was the last time influenza overwhelmed hospitals? If it did, I probably would have done my part and get a vaccine. But it's never done that- the worse the flu has ever done was close one or two schools in a community.
The system math changed with COVID. And I changed along with it.
So far, the math that if you don't get the vaccine is still playing out, but the people who deserve the abuse are the ones actively trying to tell people to not get it, and at the same time fighting all efforts to stem the tide. As if they want the hospital system to get overwhelmed and people to die.
Also, even though you seem to think the vaccines are the same thing, I also think they are not- since the old method took a lot of time, the creators had to project into the future a lot, so the effectiveness was sometimes 50/50. If the system changes to the faster development system that COVID got- it's accuracy will become greatly enhanced- which also makes the effort to get one more useful.
Even though I had not gotten an influenza vaccine, I never told people that they should not get one, or that they should go to work/school even though they are clearly sick, etc. So please reconsider your equivalency.
Again, it's not just a risk of death thing- when was the last time influenza overwhelmed hospitals? If it did, I probably would have done my part and get a vaccine. But it's never done that- the worse the flu has ever done was close one or two schools in a community.
The system math changed with COVID. And I changed along with it.
So far, the math that if you don't get the vaccine is still playing out, but the people who deserve the abuse are the ones actively trying to tell people to not get it, and at the same time fighting all efforts to stem the tide. As if they want the hospital system to get overwhelmed and people to die.
Also, even though you seem to think the vaccines are the same thing, I also think they are not- since the old method took a lot of time, the creators had to project into the future a lot, so the effectiveness was sometimes 50/50. If the system changes to the faster development system that COVID got- it's accuracy will become greatly enhanced- which also makes the effort to get one more useful.
Even though I had not gotten an influenza vaccine, I never told people that they should not get one, or that they should go to work/school even though they are clearly sick, etc. So please reconsider your equivalency.
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1. hospitals everywhere aren’t overwhelmed.
2. Moron
https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-h...-flu-patients/
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...htmlstory.html
https://amp.theguardian.com/society...als-overwhelmed-patients-could-die-top-doctor
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/healt...elmed-by-flu-and-norovirus-patients-1.1108376
News flash as the population continues to grow, gets older, gets fatter, gets more unhealthy by the day… Hospitals will be full.
Your Health is Your Responsibility
psych
Well-known member
The current risks are not the same, sure. That could change tomorrow. You not getting vaccinated increases the likelihood the flu mutates into Captain Trips-level sh-t on a faster timeline. Flu shots are cheap- even free- widely accessible, and backed by science. Basically, little risk or time spent getting one, but good benefits for you and for society. Win, win.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
I am feeling really dumb, because I can't seem to square what the argument is even being made here. That people who think we should have covid mandates don't get the flu vaccine? Like, ok, sure.
One is a weapon of mass destruction and the other is an ak-47. Rarely can you apply similar lines of thinking to any two things that differ by orders of magnitude.
You can't just handwave the fact that these are two extraordinarily different things.
One is a weapon of mass destruction and the other is an ak-47. Rarely can you apply similar lines of thinking to any two things that differ by orders of magnitude.
You can't just handwave the fact that these are two extraordinarily different things.
MichVandal
Well-known member
Technically, it did change. And I did get the vaccine. Done.
WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
This is false. I have been in multiple hospital systems that are overwhelmed during bad influenza seasons. In medical school, we lost our team room during one season as it was converted to a patient room to help with the overflow.
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