Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

[alfablue]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

Hmmmm that is 30 people per state.

In 2017 an average of 7,700 died every day in the US.

While this is still serious, let’s not go full curt schilling and spread the hyper bowl

Except that these are preventable deaths. Why should people accept a 25-50% increase in daily deaths when they are very preventable?

We have put billions of dollars into systems to prevent deaths- from product safety to air and water quality to just good workplace safety. All to reduce that daily number to as low as we can. And now we are to accept a big jump in that for the sake of the economy?

When patience would have a better result in deaths AND less of an impact on the long term economy.

 

[rufus]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

Real muricans want to work! Just ask Lindsay. Plenty of people lined up for every min wage job once someone kicks the bucket

Lyndsey's still getting paid for sitting on his fat power bottom safe at home.

Good enough for him, why isn't it good enough for anyone else?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

Except that these are preventable deaths. Why should people accept a 25-50% increase in daily deaths when they are very preventable?

We have put billions of dollars into systems to prevent deaths- from product safety to air and water quality to just good workplace safety. All to reduce that daily number to as low as we can. And now we are to accept a big jump in that for the sake of the economy?

When patience would have a better result in deaths AND less of an impact on the long term economy.

When Governor Walz spoke to Minnesotans last March before implementing shelter in place, before he closed non-essential businesses, etc..., I thought he was very honest and candid with us. He said that hundreds of thousands of Minnesotans will become infected with Covid-19. The shelter in place and business closures will not prevent that.

The purpose of those moves was to delay the infection to permit healthcare to get ready for it. The infections are going to happen. The only question is/was, can we handle them.

To the extent that infected persons died because healthcare couldn't handle the cases, arguably that was a preventable death. So yeah, if because too many doctors or nurses were out sick or because they didn't have a ventilator, a Covid-19 patient who would otherwise have lived ended up dying, that was preventable. I'm not certain how many of the 70,000+ deaths fall into that category, but I'm going to guess not a substantial number of them.

 

[Drew S.]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

When Governor Walz spoke to Minnesotans last March before implementing shelter in place, before he closed non-essential businesses, etc..., I thought he was very honest and candid with us. He said that hundreds of thousands of Minnesotans will become infected with Covid-19. The shelter in place and business closures will not prevent that.

The purpose of those moves was to delay the infection to permit healthcare to get ready for it. The infections are going to happen. The only question is/was, can we handle them.

To the extent that infected persons died because healthcare couldn't handle the cases, arguably that was a preventable death. So yeah, if because too many doctors or nurses were out sick or because they didn't have a ventilator, a Covid-19 patient who would otherwise have lived ended up dying, that was preventable. I'm not certain how many of the 70,000+ deaths fall into that category, but I'm going to guess not a substantial number of them.

You're overlooking all of the people who survive but will have long-lasting issues. It's not like people either die or are 100% better. It really is shocking to me just how bad our country has bottled this.

I'm not sure if this story got posted on here or not, but over the weekend it came out that Warren Buffet sold all of his airline stocks in DECEMBER. If he could tell at that point how serious this was going to be there is no excuse for our government.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

You're overlooking all of the people who survive but will have long-lasting issues. It's not like people either die or are 100% better. It really is shocking to me just how bad our country has bottled this.

I'm not sure if this story got posted on here or not, but over the weekend it came out that Warren Buffet sold all of his airline stocks in DECEMBER. If he could tell at that point how serious this was going to be there is no excuse for our government.

I'm not overlooking it at all. The disease can cause serious problems. What I am saying is the shelter in place is not going to prevent people from becoming infected, it's going to delay the infection rate. Millions of people are going to become infected by this disease whether we shelter in place or not. The question is will they become infected this week, or will it be spread out.

 

[rufus]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

You're overlooking all of the people who survive but will have long-lasting issues. It's not like people either die or are 100% better. It really is shocking to me just how bad our country has bottled this.

For anyone paying attention for the last four years, it was totally predictable how our administration(not country) has bottled this.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

I'm not overlooking it at all. The disease can cause serious problems. What I am saying is the shelter in place is not going to prevent people from becoming infected, it's going to delay the infection rate. Millions of people are going to become infected by this disease whether we shelter in place or not. The question is will they become infected this week, or will it be spread out.

Fair point although also fair to note that if they are spread out they should receive earlier and more thorough care thus limiting both deaths and non-lethal negative effects.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

I'm not overlooking it at all. The disease can cause serious problems. What I am saying is the shelter in place is not going to prevent people from becoming infected, it's going to delay the infection rate. Millions of people are going to become infected by this disease whether we shelter in place or not. The question is will they become infected this week, or will it be spread out.

I disagree with the lack of prevention. At some point, the virus will not be able to spread because of lack of exposure. We can do that via preventing exposure or just running out all of the people being exposed. Given the very small amount of population infected so far, it can still be prevented. Assuming that people give a crap about other people- unlike yourself.

So in YOUR line if thinking- the deaths and infection are, indeed, inevitable. Reasonable people who actually care about the population do see that it's possible to prevent deaths.

And that's above the increased survival of getting sick when the deaths are spread out. I don't know about you, but seeing the absolute strain we have on the healthcare system right now, and they are capable of dealing with it (barely)- I don't see this being sustainable while we wait for herd immunity.

(and that' also is ignoring the REALLY obvious outcome that we should have had- Taiwan and S Korea.)

I'm still amazed by the number of people willing to risk everything so that they can help someone else make millions of dollars. And actually feel lucky that they can even do that.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

I disagree with the lack of prevention. At some point, the virus will not be able to spread because of lack of exposure. We can do that via preventing exposure or just running out all of the people being exposed. Given the very small amount of population infected so far, it can still be prevented. Assuming that people give a crap about other people- unlike yourself.

So in YOUR line if thinking- the deaths and infection are, indeed, inevitable. Reasonable people who actually care about the population do see that it's possible to prevent deaths.

And that's above the increased survival of getting sick when the deaths are spread out. I don't know about you, but seeing the absolute strain we have on the healthcare system right now, and they are capable of dealing with it (barely)- I don't see this being sustainable while we wait for herd immunity.

(and that' also is ignoring the REALLY obvious outcome that we should have had- Taiwan and S Korea.)

I'm still amazed by the number of people willing to risk everything so that they can help someone else make millions of dollars. And actually feel lucky that they can even do that.

It's not just my line of thinking. Plenty of people who know way more about this than I do understand and have stated that the disease is here and the infections are going to occur. I think most understand that we probably need to see two thirds of the country exposed to this before the disease will stop spreading.

If, and it's a huge if, a vaccine could be developed, that will stop the spread and prevent deaths. But, as I understand it, that's a pretty huge if. First, we don't know if you can even find a vaccine that works. Second, doing so will take well into 2021, in all likelihood, and then we need to make it, distribute it, and get it into people. My guess is the disease will have spread far and wide long before any vaccine is available for widespread use, so at best we might have it available if this turns out to be a virus which recurs from year to year.

 

[BassAle]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

I'm not overlooking it at all. The disease can cause serious problems. What I am saying is the shelter in place is not going to prevent people from becoming infected, it's going to delay the infection rate. Millions of people are going to become infected by this disease whether we shelter in place or not. The question is will they become infected this week, or will it be spread out.

if it's spread out more, hopefully most will become infected after we have proven antivirals

 

[rufus]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

It's not just my line of thinking. Plenty of people who know way more about this than I do understand and have stated that the disease is here and the infections are going to occur. I think most understand that we probably need to see two thirds of the country exposed to this before the disease will stop spreading.

If, and it's a huge if, a vaccine could be developed, that will stop the spread and prevent deaths. But, as I understand it, that's a pretty huge if. First, we don't know if you can even find a vaccine that works. Second, doing so will take well into 2021, in all likelihood, and then we need to make it, distribute it, and get it into people. My guess is the disease will have spread far and wide long before any vaccine is available for widespread use, so at best we might have it available if this turns out to be a virus which recurs from year to year.

Really? Then explain South Korea.

The only reason its here, and infections are still going to occur, is because the Trump Administration did not 1. prepare for the oncoming pandemic 2. devise a strategy to combat the virus and 3. implement that strategy.

Allowing the virus to run rampant throughout this country until it was everywhere. And now they're walking away, saying "Mission Accomplished" and just gonna let it run its course.

And you're ok with that. In fact, you seem to think it's the only thing that we can do.

When did this country become so inept as to be able to accomplish nothing? Seems the only thing we can do now with any sort of capability is manipulate figures on pieces of paper.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is what it looks like when stacking the courts with conservative judges is the top priority in a pandemic. <a href="https://t.co/A9nyqQiNJj">https://t.co/A9nyqQiNJj</a></p>— Sasha Samberg-Champion (***amcham) <a href="https://twitter.com/ssamcham/status/1258038383122792458?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 6, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

Wild!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yet another example of: what happens if we just open back up and pretend the virus doesn’t exist? <a href="https://t.co/jIegN8J24U">https://t.co/jIegN8J24U</a></p>— Chris Hayes (@chrislhayes) <a href="https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1258039449084203009?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 6, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

When did this country become so inept as to be able to accomplish nothing? Seems the only thing we can do now with any sort of capability is manipulate figures on pieces of paper.

We're too selfish to do anything now. A critical mass of people only care about themselves and who lives under their roof. They may not be rooting for bad things to happen to anybody else, but they don't care if they do. It is so widespread and deeply ingrained, it is not going away barring some unbelievable catastrophe (nuclear war levels of death and disruption). People like hovey don't even realize their attitudes are selfish and defeatist because, again, so many people think exactly like that. Our culture has evolved to this point for a lot of reasons, but whatever the reasons, it has.

I don't know why we were different in times like WWII, when most people accepted restrictions on travel or rationing or frequent widespread coastal blackouts, and seemed to have more of an attitude of "we're all in this together until the end." But whatever we had then, we don't have it now.

One thing we did have then of course was better leadership at the top. But I'm wondering how things would be if we had Clinton as president instead of trump. Obviously her response would have been a lot more science and evidence centered. She likely would have been able to convey an appropriate amount of empathy and would have kicked things off weeks (maybe months?) earlier. But we'd still have the idiot governors out there screaming about opening things up --and that would have been April 1st instead of May 1st. Maybe we'd still have the tea bag confederates and their AR-15 richard extensions marching in East Lansing. There is so much more wrong with this country than just donald trump.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

I'm still amazed by the number of people willing to risk everything so that they can help someone else make millions of dollars. And actually feel lucky that they can even do that.

I have a theory about this. (Surprise)

We're seeing the full measure of a parallel culture that has been raised or bullied to not trust science. This is the same as climate change: there are somewhere between 25 and 40 percent of Americans who just won't accept facts that contradict their religious or economic viewpoints. This has been helped along by the proliferation of conspiracies and of course by the parasitic right wing media who plays to this, but at the end of the day this has always been populism: the knowledgeable are elitists; I know just as much as they do.

It would have been off-brand if the right has behaved rationally on this. They are a behavioral study in the Leader Principle: somebody (their pastor, their teevee host) tells them that their preferences are true, therefore that person is credible.

I blame Emerson:

To believe our own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men, -- that is genius. Speak your latent conviction, and it shall be the universal sense; for the inmost in due time becomes the outmost,--and our first thought, is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the Last Judgment.

Waldo was a great guy but that's the biggest bunch of hooey I ever read.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

It's not just my line of thinking. Plenty of people who know way more about this than I do understand and have stated that the disease is here and the infections are going to occur. I think most understand that we probably need to see two thirds of the country exposed to this before the disease will stop spreading.

If, and it's a huge if, a vaccine could be developed, that will stop the spread and prevent deaths. But, as I understand it, that's a pretty huge if. First, we don't know if you can even find a vaccine that works. Second, doing so will take well into 2021, in all likelihood, and then we need to make it, distribute it, and get it into people. My guess is the disease will have spread far and wide long before any vaccine is available for widespread use, so at best we might have it available if this turns out to be a virus which recurs from year to year.

And yet others have shown that if all we did was get 80% of the population to wear masks that are 60% effective it would reduce R0 to under 1. But somehow we can't even be bothered to do that, because freedumb. The other HUGE problem with your plan is that it assumes we are immune after being infected, and that is at best unproven and at worst completely wrong.

 

[Drew S.]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

We're too selfish to do anything now. A critical mass of people only care about themselves and who lives under their roof. They may not be rooting for bad things to happen to anybody else, but they don't care if they do. It is so widespread and deeply ingrained, it is not going away barring some unbelievable catastrophe (nuclear war levels of death and disruption). People like hovey don't even realize their attitudes are selfish and defeatist because, again, so many people think exactly like that. Our culture has evolved to this point for a lot of reasons, but whatever the reasons, it has.

I don't know why we were different in times like WWII, when most people accepted restrictions on travel or rationing or frequent widespread coastal blackouts, and seemed to have more of an attitude of "we're all in this together until the end." But whatever we had then, we don't have it now.

One thing we did have then of course was better leadership at the top. But I'm wondering how things would be if we had Clinton as president instead of trump. Obviously her response would have been a lot more science and evidence centered. She likely would have been able to convey an appropriate amount of empathy and would have kicked things off weeks (maybe months?) earlier. But we'd still have the idiot governors out there screaming about opening things up --and that would have been April 1st instead of May 1st. Maybe we'd still have the tea bag confederates and their AR-15 richard extensions marching in East Lansing. There is so much more wrong with this country than just donald trump.

One of the most shocking things to me in this area is how upset the golf crowd is, and that is coming from someone who absolutely loves golf. Not playing for a bit is an incredibly small sacrifice to make compared to what a lot of people are doing, but its a bridge too far for a lot of folks around here. It is absolutely disgusting.

 

[rufus]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

I don't know why we were different in times like WWII, when most people accepted restrictions on travel or rationing or frequent widespread coastal blackouts, and seemed to have more of an attitude of "we're all in this together until the end." But whatever we had then, we don't have it now.
.

You know why? Because even then, most people in this country made their living working with their hands. Working long hours for little reward, backbreaking, sweat-producing manual labor. They were used to sacrifice, to toil, to hardship.

They didn't sit on their azzes all day in air-conditioned cubicles pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet, and thinking that made for a grueling work day.

 

[rufus]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

One of the most shocking things to me in this area is how upset the golf crowd is, and that is coming from someone who absolutely loves golf. Not playing for a bit is an incredibly small sacrifice to make compared to what a lot of people are doing, but its a bridge too far for a lot of folks around here. It is absolutely disgusting.

Because Americans are selfish. Soft and lazy. And stupid. incredibly stupid.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Covfefe-19 Part 9: Shelter In Place is Temporary, but Wu-Tang is Forever

Because human beings are selfish. Soft and lazy. And stupid. incredibly stupid.

Fixed.