Cops: No Snarky Nor Positive Title

[Kepler]

Cops will always torture the Out group. They exist to maintain the economic hierarchy through enforcement of what the greater society views as just moral strictures.

It's not a coincidence that cops got started when religious authorities lost their state sanction to persecute Out groups. The economic order is always maintained by terror. First it was warlords threatening to burn your house. Then it was priests threatening to throw your immortal soul into hell. Now it's cops threatening to throw you into prison to be raped.

SSDD. Rule by terror.

 

[SJHovey]

Cops will always torture the Out group. They exist to maintain the economic hierarchy through enforcement of what the greater society views as just moral strictures.

It's not a coincidence that cops got started when religious authorities lost their state sanction to persecute Out groups. The economic order is always maintained by terror. First it was warlords threatening to burn your house. Then it was priests threatening to throw your immortal soul into hell. Now it's cops threatening to throw you into prison to be raped.

SSDD. Rule by terror.

Municipal police forces may be far from perfect, but I’m not certain a return to the days when “the law” was three days away, or came in the form of private services like the Pinkertons, is the way to go either. The government provides law enforcement or people will do it on their own.

 

[rufus]

Municipal police forces may be far from perfect, but I’m not certain a return to the days when “the law” was three days away, or came in the form of private services like the Pinkertons, is the way to go either. The government provides law enforcement or people will do it on their own.

Your strawman is duly noted.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Municipal police forces may be far from perfect, but I’m not certain a return to the days when “the law” was three days away, or came in the form of private services like the Pinkertons, is the way to go either. The government provides law enforcement or people will do it on their own.

Apparently by the time your cops arrived at the scene of that bar shooting at least some of the the victims had already been transported to hospitals. So not only did your cops not prevent the crime, they were not even there quickly enough to render aid to the victims. Useless. And when has the law ever been "three days away?" If you're talking about the mythology of the Wild, Wild American West in the days of yore, historian actually believe the "old west" actually saw a lot less crime than the cities of the east. In some cases they did quite fine with the ubiquitous presence of law enforcement.

For the money we spend on law enforcement we get almost nothing in return. It's like spending $40,000 at your local car dealer and expecting to get a brand new Camaro SS and instead you drive away with a used 1985 Yugo that's missing all the windows and the steering wheel.

 

[MissThundercat]

Hovey, Did you read when I said my community can't count on local law enforcement? Bear in mind, Stonewall happened because the police brutalized us. And with attitudes like yours, there will be Stonewall 2, 3, and 4 AT LEAST.

 

[aparch]

...I’m not certain a return to the days when “the law” was three days away, or came in the form of private services like the Pinkertons, is the way to go either.

 

[Handyman]

It's MASH Syndrome

 

[SJHovey]

Apparently by the time your cops arrived at the scene of that bar shooting at least some of the the victims had already been transported to hospitals. So not only did your cops not prevent the crime, they were not even there quickly enough to render aid to the victims. Useless. And when has the law ever been "three days away?" If you're talking about the mythology of the Wild, Wild American West in the days of yore, historian actually believe the "old west" actually saw a lot less crime than the cities of the east. In some cases they did quite fine with the ubiquitous presence of law enforcement.

For the money we spend on law enforcement we get almost nothing in return. It's like spending $40,000 at your local car dealer and expecting to get a brand new Camaro SS and instead you drive away with a used 1985 Yugo that's missing all the windows and the steering wheel.

You guys have me all wrong. I’ve always believed in the right of people to make extremely stupid decisions and then be required to live with the consequences. You guys want to abolish the police force in your city and count on the peace and good will of your fellow man, have at it. It won’t be as easy as Handy clicking his ruby slippers and wishing it away, but it can certainly be done.

All I ask is you give me a list of the open cities.

 

[MissThundercat]

Given that I'm a trans woman in America and the government is actively skull f-cking my community right now, along with the fact trans people do not trust cops...

I'll take my chances with a social worker.

 

[Drew S.]

You guys have me all wrong. I’ve always believed in the right of people to make extremely stupid decisions and then be required to live with the consequences. You guys want to abolish the police force in your city and count on the peace and good will of your fellow man, have at it. It won’t be as easy as Handy clicking his ruby slippers and wishing it away, but it can certainly be done.

All I ask is you give me a list of the open cities.

I don’t think anyone wants to completely get rid of the police, it’s more that they want the police to solve serious crimes and leave people alone otherwise. Never in a million years should someone get killed because they are passed out in their car at a fast food place.

 

[Jeb2020]

I don’t think anyone wants to completely get rid of the police, it’s more that they want the police to solve serious crimes and leave people alone otherwise. Never in a million years should someone get killed because they are passed out in their car at a fast food place.

The Cops didn’t open his door and shoot him.

They arrived, he woke up, failed a sobriety test and everything was peaceful to that point. They were in the process of arresting him and he started to fight. Then he got his hands on their taser and tried to use it in the Cop.

No one says he “deserved” to die.

create that scenario many times, fighting Cop(s) and there is bound to be incidents that don’t end well.

Don’t drink and drive and if you do face the consequences and none of this ever happens.

 

[Kepler]

Nobody wants to get rid of the police completely, though it might not be a bad idea.

 

[Kepler]

Uncle Tim.

 

[aparch]

I don’t think anyone wants to completely get rid of the police, it’s more that they want the police to solve serious crimes and leave people alone otherwise. Never in a million years should someone get killed because they are passed out in their car at a fast food place.

Drew gets it.

"Lets fund social workers, therapists, counselors, dog catchers, etc. better instead of making our police officers do everything. This will allow our police to actually police," doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

"Defund The Police" does.

 

[Handyman]

I don’t think anyone wants to completely get rid of the police, it’s more that they want the police to solve serious crimes and leave people alone otherwise. Never in a million years should someone get killed because they are passed out in their car at a fast food place.

Bingo. There is no way to train cops how to do everything they are asked to do nor are they needed to do it. There is no reason why an armed cop is needed to show up at probably 3/4 of the calls they get. There is no amount of training that can fix the issue.

That is why hovey you sound like an idiot when you make jokes about Social Workers making the run to deal with the people shot. No one is remotely suggesting that. They are suggesting though if 9-1-1 is called because someone with Schizophrenia is having an episode someone who is trained to deal with them will be dispatched instead of cops who have no idea how to deal with the situation and is just going to lead to trouble. It isnt fair to the person or the cops and there is no amount of training they can do that will change that. They are trained to see people as threats and we have seen how that plays out. (if you want ask my gf some time...her brother was a Schizophrenic and she has spent 15 years teaching kids with mental impairments like that)

This is not a training fixable problem out there. Because politicians (we wont say who) feel the need to cut every social safety net there is cops are asked to handle literally everything. They arent equipped to handle that and no matter how much money, training and additions you add to the force they never will be. So let the cops deal with serious crimes and let other types of experts deal with other scenarios.

You dont defund or deconstruct the cops to get rid of them in every capacity, you do it so you can make a better system. If someone trained in social work had been sent to Cup Foods instead of armed cops on a power trip we arent still having protests around the world cause George Floyd is alive.

 

[Handyman]

Drew gets it.

"Lets fund social workers, therapists, counselors, dog catchers, etc. better instead of making our police officers do everything. This will allow our police to actually police," doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

"Defund The Police" does.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

What is sad and frightening is Hovey seems like a reasonably intelligent person, and yet he has bought the cop propaganda hook, line, and sinker. He buys all that "thin blue line" garbage, and all the garbage out there that more cops, or better trained cops, or weeding out the handful of bad apple cops, well that's all we need. He wants you to believe he is actually concerned because he probably feels like George Floyd was murdered by one of the handful of bad cops. And sure, those other 3 who watched (or helped) were just sort of bad apples too and yes they should have been fired.

I too have said before that despite my absolute disgust with cops everywhere and how basically useless they are as currently deployed, even I don't say we should be abolishing police departments in their entirety. But that is typical of Hovey and the rest of the right wing in this country, nuance is lost and there has never been a red herring they couldn't catch and most difficult concepts go over their heads. Most of them simply can't wrap their heads around how fvcking wrong they have been about cops for a long time now, and the rest actively encourage the police to simply act as another wing of the KKK and terrorize people of color or any other marginalized groups. It is fvcking terrorism what the police have been dishing out in every state in the country.

Well enjoy getting your jollies out over all the macho bull5h!t the cops have been pulling for decades, it looks like there's a chance a change may be coming.

 

[Kepler]

IINM Hovey is a former cop. He was always 99% likely to see this from the POV of cops. Very few people can step back and look dispassionately at their own experiences. They are, after all, their experiences. They were there. All the normal cognitive biases are operating, and on top of them everybody firmly believes they can compensate for those biases.

Think of it like this. Other than actual avowed white supremacists, all white people think they have a handle on racism and think they aren't more than a shade racist. However, the majority of white people are very racist and a substantial percentage of white people are OFF THE CHARTS racist. Yet if you asked us we would all say "I'm racist in that it's a virtually unavoidable part of growing up in a racist society but I try really hard to be better than that and mostly I think I succeed." Every white thinks this, even (especially) Republicans.

Cops are no different about having exaggerated ideas about themselves. And now on top of that add in that white esprit de corps is minimal or even frowned upon while cop esprit de corps is maximal and highly encouraged. That siege mentality means cops have enormous incentive to see themselves as not blameworthy. Soldiers who commit or condone atrocities are the same. Hovey's not a jerk, he's just a human being who comes out of a particular POV-forging experience which most of us don't share. Something something cast the first stone something.

 

[Handyman]

I don't remember Hovey ever saying he had anything to do with policin .

 

[Kepler]

I don't remember Hovey ever saying he had anything to do with policin .

I could be smoking crack; I thought he was a police veteran.

If not then please disregard. I have certainly been reading his stuff for years under the impression that he is a retired police officer from Canada. Any of this ringing a bell with somebody else maybe?