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Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

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Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Despite the USCCB, the Code of Canon Law permits the death penalty. It should be rare and only for the gravest reasons, but it is permitted.

Read this:

https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2015/03/09/okay-what-about-catholics-and-the-death-penalty/

Semantics, schmantics.

Ethically & morally permitted to be enshrined in secular laws? Yes. Frowned upon? Definitely. Necessary for the justice system of a modern civilized society? No, and in fact the available alternatives make it quite clear what the Church's position is today, and why JP II wrote what he wrote.

If I cared all that much, I think I'd go with the text of the present Catechism, not to mention the oft-quoted Papal encyclical on the topic, over the blog of a canon lawyer who openly prides himself in being a rock-ribbed, arch-conservative. But then again, I don't fantasize about the Tridentine Mass and getting my knuckles whacked with a ruler by a nun in a full habit like you do. :p

For the record, I'm actually fine with giving convicts a hot shot under extreme circumstances. Genocidal war criminals, for instance. Or serial killers whose victims included minors. Or terrorists.
 
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Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Except we see cases every day now where that isnt the case. It is easy for you or I to say "just comply you will be ok" because if we comply most likely we will be ok. That isnt true for a growing number of people. (like say Black people or the Deaf guy they just killed)

And again since when is pulling a gun so high up on the list of things cops do? Doing so only escalates situations and causes a fight or flight response. If you arent doing anything wrong and someone (cop or not) pulls a gun on you are you saying you wont freak out? I am literally trained not to and even I doubt I wont freak out a bit. Cops have a responsibility above that of ordinary citizens. If they are going to draw their guns every time someone looks at them sideways they are going to kill more people than they should be. It is basic math man.

I commented on the Deaf Guy situation. Taser made the right decision, given the circumstances. Deaf Guy was approaching with a 2 foot pipe in his hand. Taser used non-lethal force. Shooter is in deep sh*, as he should be.

Also, many of these cases, the alleged perp did something to make the cops draw their guns in the first place. Note, I said many, not all.

And trixie is one of the more anti-cop biased people on here. According to him, every cop thinks it's the Wild Wild West out there and they come out a-shootin'. Not the case. Know why it's news? It's a rare occurrence relative to the amount of interactions police have with the public. Think: airplane crashes vs automobile crashes.

Does it happen more than it should? Of course. I'd say a vast majority of cops NEVER want to pull their gun. That is one bad situation, even if nothing ends up happening. But once that gun is pulled, SOME automatically assume that the cop is guilty of being some sort of gung-ho cowboy. That's bullsh*. Wait until all the facts and evidence come out, and then judge. You can speculate, sure, but be ready to eat crow if you're wrong (I say that of everyone, including me).
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Nah, at worst he'll be fired. No jury in Oklahoma will return a homicide conviction under the circumstances - the perp was brandishing a pipe and advancing on them, remember?

I think the fact his partner tased him and neighbors shouting that he was deaf might sway enough. I sure hope so, anyway. And the fact he was developmentally disabled. Manslaughter should definitely be in the cards. I will cede homicide conviction.
 
I think the fact his partner tased him and neighbors shouting that he was deaf might sway enough. I sure hope so, anyway. And the fact he was developmentally disabled. Manslaughter should definitely be in the cards. I will cede homicide conviction.

To be legally pedantic, homicide is the generic term for any crime that involves the killing of a person, including manslaughter. You're ceding murder charges.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Posing that question doesn't = me defending the a-holes that eff up. Don't equate my interjection with defending cops no matter what.
Fair enough I get that. The problem isn't anything you said so much as how it looks in the context of this thread where Brent is basically implying that you can just avoid getting shot through his mental gymnastics.

And trixie is one of the more anti-cop biased people on here. According to him, every cop thinks it's the Wild Wild West out there and they come out a-shootin'. Not the case. Know why it's news? It's a rare occurrence relative to the amount of interactions police have with the public. Think: airplane crashes vs automobile crashes.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Or perhaps I just comment on the few stories of a small percentage of cops who actually do that.
 
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Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Dude, come on. I think my posting history suggests it's pretty clear I've not been a super-cop advocate. I agree 100% that in many, many of these cases the cop(s) completely overstepped their bounds. The problem with discussions like this is that people too often (on both sides) use a broad-stroke answer to a single-stroke question.

Trigger-happy cops are a significant issue and this country needs to invest in re-branding the culture that leads them to such behavior. So many of these events completely make me smh along with many of you on top of making me extremely sad and angry. I was responding to a somewhat specific scenario which is if a (rogue) cop pulls his gun on you what is the best course of action in that situation? You might be effed no matter what, but would you not agree on occasion the actions of the "perp" will enable the over-exuberant cop to calm down and not do something stupid?

Posing that question doesn't = me defending the a-holes that eff up. Don't equate my interjection with defending cops no matter what.

I am not equating I am simply stating...the idea of "if you comply you will be fine" is ridiculous these days when it is proven daily not to be true. It isnt about you per se, I get your stance. It is the idea that that is ok at all. The whole dynamic needs to change and fast.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

I commented on the Deaf Guy situation. Taser made the right decision, given the circumstances. Deaf Guy was approaching with a 2 foot pipe in his hand. Taser used non-lethal force. Shooter is in deep sh*, as he should be.

Also, many of these cases, the alleged perp did something to make the cops draw their guns in the first place. Note, I said many, not all.

And trixie is one of the more anti-cop biased people on here. According to him, every cop thinks it's the Wild Wild West out there and they come out a-shootin'. Not the case. Know why it's news? It's a rare occurrence relative to the amount of interactions police have with the public. Think: airplane crashes vs automobile crashes.

Does it happen more than it should? Of course. I'd say a vast majority of cops NEVER want to pull their gun. That is one bad situation, even if nothing ends up happening. But once that gun is pulled, SOME automatically assume that the cop is guilty of being some sort of gung-ho cowboy. That's bullsh*. Wait until all the facts and evidence come out, and then judge. You can speculate, sure, but be ready to eat crow if you're wrong (I say that of everyone, including me).

Why should wait for all the facts when cops dont wait for all the facts before they shoot people? I am a random poster with no power on a message board...

What was it a month ago the cops went to the wrong house and shot to death a the guy living there?

Until cops start acting to de-escalate as opposed to escalate situations then nothing will change. Drawing your gun in situations where it isnt needed (which is many of these since they arent being threatened) is either fear, arrogance or small man syndrome.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Until cops start acting to de-escalate as opposed to escalate situations then nothing will change. Drawing your gun in situations where it isnt needed (which is many of these since they arent being threatened) is either fear, arrogance or small man syndrome.

Here's a prediction on the escalation/de-escalation issue: We're going to see cops start behaving everywhere like the behaved in St. Louis recently when they began chanting at demonstrators. Despite the mayor and police officials generically saying that was not proper behavior, they did it anyway. My guess is in the weeks and months to come, these demonstrations are going to feature more and more cops behaving like that and worse. There are no consequences when they shoot unarmed people for no reason, does anyone think that means they are going to suddenly embrace the idea of de-escalation? Not a chance.

Why do we tolerate it? It isn't as if the police are so good at what they do that we have to give them a lot of extra leeway, and in that at least they do their jobs well. Fewer than half of all violent crimes are cleared, and for property crimes the number is even more disheartening, only around 20%. Those numbers must also be taken for what they mean. The police consider a crime "cleared" if they charge or arrest a suspect, not if anyone is ever held ultimately held accountable and punished. Also, most crimes go unreported. Is this because most people realize there is a pretty good chance it WON'T get solved?

Everywhere else in government, the right screams, whines and pouts about how "inefficient" it is, or how the private sector could do better for less money. Whether it is your schools, your streets, your county tax office, or virtually any other governmental entity, the right thinks the public sector sucks. Unless you are a cop or in the military. Then you are golden, no matter how much you fvck up or how poorly overall you are doing your job.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Fewer than half of all violent crimes are cleared,
Even with that you sometimes get some really bad police work where they bury an innocent person.

Everywhere else in government, the right screams, whines and pouts about how "inefficient" it is, or how the private sector could do better for less money. Whether it is your schools, your streets, your county tax office, or virtually any other governmental entity, the right thinks the public sector sucks.
This is a good point. It's one of their many inconsistencies and I guess in that case the fascism overrides the whole government being inefficient bit.
 
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Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

These are both absolutely true stories:

Someone ripped my father and I off when we ran a business out of the house for many thousands of dollars. They forged my signature and his signature on company checks and cashed them. We had the cancelled checks, the proof of the fraudulent signatures and even pretty much caught the thief red handed. We walked into the police department (an affluent suburb) and talked to two detectives. We literally handed them an open and shut case. That was 10 years ago, to this day they have never charged the criminal. It was deemed a "waste of resources".

I worked for a company where a high up official embezzled 250K. We knew who did it, we knew how he did it, we knew where he did it and we even had pictures of him doing it. The police have all the evidence. The police knew where he lived, even had proof of him trying to commit further acts of fraud in the name of the company during the investigation. He has been in prison previously for fraud as well For 6 months they literally did nothing except "build a case". The only reason he is in jail now was he was picked up by a different department on unrelated charges. The case is still open.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

These are both absolutely true stories:

Someone ripped my father and I off when we ran a business out of the house for many thousands of dollars. They forged my signature and his signature on company checks and cashed them. We had the cancelled checks, the proof of the fraudulent signatures and even pretty much caught the thief red handed. We walked into the police department (an affluent suburb) and talked to two detectives. We literally handed them an open and shut case. That was 10 years ago, to this day they have never charged the criminal. It was deemed a "waste of resources".

I worked for a company where a high up official embezzled 250K. We knew who did it, we knew how he did it, we knew where he did it and we even had pictures of him doing it. The police have all the evidence. The police knew where he lived, even had proof of him trying to commit further acts of fraud in the name of the company during the investigation. He has been in prison previously for fraud as well For 6 months they literally did nothing except "build a case". The only reason he is in jail now was he was picked up by a different department on unrelated charges. The case is still open.

These are also both true:

The cop in Cleveland, Timothy Loehmann, who shot 12 year old Tamir Rice in 2014 (and violated all sorts of procedures and policies in the process) resigned from his previous police department because he was emotionally and mentally unstable, and his chief felt he was unfit to be a police officer. He also repeatedly failed in his attempts to qualify for his firearm proficiency. When he applied, literally up the road from the Independence, Ohio police department that he resigned from (he resigned knowing he was going to be fired if he did not leave willingly), the Cleveland Police Department did not make one check on his record. When I was offered the position I have here in Northeast Ohio, my employer verified my education, did two extensive interviews with me, had me take tests to assure I had the aptitude for the work they wanted me to do, and interviewed not one but three of the references I listed. My job, by the way, doesn't allow me special privileges to shoot anybody. How many people believe Timothy Loehmann is the only one of Cleveland's 1600 sworn police officers who was NOT properly vetted? If you believe he was the only one, you're an idiot. And before anyone tries to tell me that Tamir Rice is at least partially responsible, because he was carrying a toy gun that had the little orange plug pulled off, get over yourselves. Unless you wanna ban toy guns completely. 9-1-1 callers said it was probably a fake or toy gun and the cops committed numerous violations of policy and their own training. A young boy paid with his life. Fvck both of those cops.

One of my best friends used to be a cop. He was a good cop. Open minded. Thoughtful. Was a cop because he thought it would be an exciting way to make a difference, to help a community. He embodied the motto on many police cars that is a cruel joke in many places in 2017, "To Serve And Protect." I occasionally accompanied him on midnight shifts as a civilian ride-along. If he saw someone driving erratically or committing an obvious violation, he'd pull them over. If they were impaired, he'd make the arrest. Sometimes people would give him lip or argue. He never raised his voice or resorted to treating anyone poorly. He rarely though wrote an actual ticket. "What's the point?" he'd tell me. "I made my point with them, they'll drive home safe. And they won't resent me later if I need to get their help with something in the neighborhood." One night when I trekked up there to ride with him for a shift a superior officer chewed him out because he never wrote tickets "to the homeboys." (the town, in southeast Michigan, was overwhelmingly black) He offered the same reasoning to his superior as he offered me. "It ain't about developing relationships, its about showing them who the boss is in this town," the shift commander said. That is a quote. His shift commander did not know I was in the next room, waiting for my friend to grab his things and hit the road. If you believe that shift commander was the only cop out there who thinks their job is to show "the homeboys" who the boss REALLY is, and the rest of them are appalled at that notion and attitude, you're an idiot.
 
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Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Yeah, my uncle's dept gave his nephew a reckless driving ticket b/c the nephew tried to drop my uncle's name to get out of said deserved ticket. And when my uncle found out about it, vehicle gone for 3 months for trying to drop a name.

You can drop anecdotal stories all you want. Most cops are good cops. Most departments are good departments. Can it be better? YES. I've said that quite a few times. Getting sick of the COPS ARE BAD attitude, though.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Yeah, my uncle's dept gave his nephew a reckless driving ticket b/c the nephew tried to drop my uncle's name to get out of said deserved ticket. And when my uncle found out about it, vehicle gone for 3 months for trying to drop a name.

You can drop anecdotal stories all you want. Most cops are good cops. Most departments are good departments. Can it be better? YES. I've said that quite a few times. Getting sick of the COPS ARE BAD attitude, though.

Then cops should act better. Sorry man but this isnt anecdotal stuff it is happening all across the country every day. Hell just do the math, how many cops do you think there are in the country? Now lets say even a minuscule number, like 1% are what you deem bad. That is still thousands of cops in hundreds of cities. That is more than a few bad apples.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Then cops should act better. Sorry man but this isnt anecdotal stuff it is happening all across the country every day. Hell just do the math, how many cops do you think there are in the country? Now lets say even a minuscule number, like 1% are what you deem bad. That is still thousands of cops in hundreds of cities. That is more than a few bad apples.

And it's still 1%. Am I mad at that? Yes. However, 1% is still pretty darn good for a profession. Some cannot admit that. How many teachers molest students? This is where I'm going......

That 1% is the headline, when the 99% should be. Nowadays, being a good cop APPEARS to be the exception, and that doesn't sit right with me.
 
Yeah, my uncle's dept gave his nephew a reckless driving ticket b/c the nephew tried to drop my uncle's name to get out of said deserved ticket. And when my uncle found out about it, vehicle gone for 3 months for trying to drop a name.

You can drop anecdotal stories all you want. Most cops are good cops. Most departments are good departments. Can it be better? YES. I've said that quite a few times. Getting sick of the COPS ARE BAD attitude, though.

Oh suck it up. You never hear lawyers complain about their bad rap. Cops can grow thicker skin, too.
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

Oh suck it up. You never hear lawyers complain about their bad rap. Cops can grow thicker skin, too.

I don't recall the last protest against lawyers that overtook the streets and got media coverage. ;)
 
Re: Cops 5: Barney Fife, Now in Real Life!

You can drop anecdotal stories all you want. Most cops are good cops. Most departments are good departments. Can it be better? YES. I've said that quite a few times. Getting sick of the COPS ARE BAD attitude, though.

This is demonstrably untrue. Most police departments are ineffective at best. So by that definition alone most cops and their department are not good. They are actually lousy. They don't prevent crime. They don't solve crime. And people have so little faith in them, many -- and in some cases a majority -- of crimes go un-reported. And on top of that, every single day there are credible reports of cops using excessive force and completely overstepping their authority. Much like the under-reporting of other crimes, bad encounters with police also go un- or under-reported. These bad encounters range from police simply behaving disrespectfully all the way up to violent assaults. Police officers are far more likely to commit domestic abuse. Every time an athlete smacks his girlfriend around we are all up in arms, justifiably so, but police officers are 3 times more likely to beat up their wives or girlfriends as an NFL player. Three. Times. More. Likely.

Brent, you remind me of a co-worker of mine. I work in an organization that is notoriously progressive. I use the term "notoriously" not to illustrate it as bad, just that it is very well known and very pervasive throughout the place. At a full staff meeting a couple years ago we were talking about social justice and all of the ways our society was troubled and where we could focus our efforts and make the most impact. A dozen or more things were up on a screen in a power point presentation. One of them was police and criminal justice reform. This particular co-worker was on board with everything being said and discussed except one thing. She didn't think the police were much of an issue and criminal justice reform was last on her list of topics that needed reform. "Most cops are great," she said. I did not know her much at all other than to know her name, where she lived and what team in my organization she was on. My question to her? Who in your family is in law enforcement. Nailed it.

Maybe your uncle IS one of the good ones. I hope so and he probably is. You're not a bigot, so he probably isn't either. Your take though on the situation seems greatly influenced by your relative, at least to me.
 
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