Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Exactly. To call this a race war is so wildly overdramatic and inaccurate that I can barely think of the right words to describe it.

You've watched far too many movies, Rube.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

World history is full of states that weren't a hot war but were still violent periods that escalated much further. Whether this is technically a race war or not, doesn't matter. We need to look for solutions as though it were. Anything else sweeps problems under the carpet and endangers escalation.

Two issues at hand 1) race relations 2) guns usage for solutions.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

They sent in a bomb robot with a bomb and detonated it to kill the suspect. Yikes. That is serious stuff.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Exactly. To call this a race war is so wildly overdramatic and inaccurate that I can barely think of the right words to describe it.

You've watched far too many movies, Rube.

He is also very emotional because cops are being killed. Lots of people are. The inherent problem with that is many of the same people (not him he already called the cop out in Falcon Heights) were never this outraged that an innocent victim was killed.

Rube, and plenty of others are just feeling what many in the Black Community have been feeling the last two years. My newsfeed on Facebook has every cop and relative of a cop I know posting stuff about how "Cops Lives Matter" but they were deadly silent 24 hours ago. Everyone should be mourning both situations.

This isnt a Race War (only paranoid people and racist radio hosts truly believe that which was kind of what Higher Learning was really saying) but you can be ****ed sure that if something isnt done fast there will be more race riots. People are angry. It was bad enough when there was video of the LA cops beating Rodney King and still got off this is cops all over the country killing people and never paying the piper. Not to mention the Black Community watches as white kids rape women and get caught red handed and have judges worry about the stress a sentence will put on their life. (Stanford Rape Case) They see white men shoot up Black Churches and they are allowed to surrender while Black People have to worry about being pulled over in broad day light. They see White People committing billion dollar frauds and never serving a day in jail while a Black Dude sells illegal cigarettes and gets choked to death right out on the streets of New York. They see cops pulling guns on kids at a pool party. They see Black People die mysteriously in custody. They see Black Tennis Stars get beat up for standing in the wrong place. Right or wrong, Blacks feel like it is open season on them.

And here is the thing I think they are right. One thing that was said last night about the death in Falcon Heights that was the most poignant was how we keep hearing how he was a good man and he had a clean record and never did anything wrong and that shouldnt matter. He didnt deserve to die. That is what I have been saying for 2 years in threads like this. People look for any reason to impeach the credibility of the victim. Many only get outraged when there is nothing to destroy the victim for. That isnt how it is supposed to be. Just because someone is a bad person doesnt mean they deserve to die. Deadly force should be a last resort, not something used because someone mouths off. (especially since we know if it was dx, or me or Rube we aint getting shot or tazed for it) This isnt Dirty Harry you dont just kill the bad guy. You arent 007 you dont have a license to kill. We have given cops too much leeway because their jobs are tough and scary (and they are I know from firsthand stories) but we cant give them the carte blanche they have now. It is time their authority was checked. And that isnt just to protect us, but to protect them as well.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

They sent in a bomb robot with a bomb and detonated it to kill the suspect. Yikes. That is serious stuff.

While that is a good tactic...I dont want random police departments to have that kind of weapon.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

World history is full of states that weren't a hot war but were still violent periods that escalated much further. Whether this is technically a race war or not, doesn't matter. We need to look for solutions as though it were. Anything else sweeps problems under the carpet and endangers escalation.

Two issues at hand 1) race relations 2) guns usage for solutions.

I don't know if you could find anyone who would say we should just ignore the racial element of this. But calling it a "race war" is like calling the war on terror a "religious war." It plays right into the hands of the fanatics who pretend that their garden variety terrorism is a romantic struggle between large human groups.

Just like a suicide bombing gets a certain type of person to react "that's Islam at it again," so does this get that same guy to say "there goes those blacks again." That dimwit is giving the violent extremists exactly what they want -- he's making a few psychos the spokesperson for an entire group.

These shootings and (if they were that) counter shootings are an attack on civilization by fearful and angry uncivilized people. The answer is for all civilized people to join hands across these artificial social divides and mutually protect ourselves against the nutbars.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

I don't know if you could find anyone who would say we should just ignore the racial element of this. But calling it a "race war" is like calling the war on terror a "religious war." It plays right into the hands of the fanatics who pretend that their garden variety terrorism is a romantic struggle between large human groups.

Just like a suicide bombing gets a certain type of person to react "that's Islam at it again," so does this get that same guy to say "there goes those blacks again." That dimwit is giving the violent extremists exactly what they want -- he's making a few psychos the spokesperson for an entire group.

These shootings and (if they were that) counter shootings are an attack on civilization by fearful and angry uncivilized people. The answer is for all civilized people to join hands across these artificial social divides and mutually protect ourselves against the nutbars.

Bingo!

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

They sent in a bomb robot with a bomb and detonated it to kill the suspect. Yikes. That is serious stuff.

Source?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

I don't know if you could find anyone who would say we should just ignore the racial element of this. But calling it a "race war" is like calling the war on terror a "religious war." It plays right into the hands of the fanatics who pretend that their garden variety terrorism is a romantic struggle between large human groups.

Just like a suicide bombing gets a certain type of person to react "that's Islam at it again," so does this get that same guy to say "there goes those blacks again." That dimwit is giving the violent extremists exactly what they want -- he's making a few psychos the spokesperson for an entire group.

These shootings and (if they were that) counter shootings are an attack on civilization by fearful and angry uncivilized people. The answer is for all civilized people to join hands across these artificial social divides and mutually protect ourselves against the nutbars.

Good post. Unfortunately only 5% of the population understands what you're saying to be the case. And thus the perpetuation continues for both "wars".

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Source?

I heard that on WCCO radio 5 minutes ago.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Source?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/suspect-killed-bomb-robot

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

He is also very emotional because cops are being killed. Lots of people are. The inherent problem with that is many of the same people (not him he already called the cop out in Falcon Heights) were never this outraged that an innocent victim was killed.

Rube, and plenty of others are just feeling what many in the Black Community have been feeling the last two years. My newsfeed on Facebook has every cop and relative of a cop I know posting stuff about how "Cops Lives Matter" but they were deadly silent 24 hours ago. Everyone should be mourning both situations.

This isnt a Race War (only paranoid people and racist radio hosts truly believe that which was kind of what Higher Learning was really saying) but you can be ****ed sure that if something isnt done fast there will be more race riots. People are angry. It was bad enough when there was video of the LA cops beating Rodney King and still got off this is cops all over the country killing people and never paying the piper. Not to mention the Black Community watches as white kids rape women and get caught red handed and have judges worry about the stress a sentence will put on their life. (Stanford Rape Case) They see white men shoot up Black Churches and they are allowed to surrender while Black People have to worry about being pulled over in broad day light. They see White People committing billion dollar frauds and never serving a day in jail while a Black Dude sells illegal cigarettes and gets choked to death right out on the streets of New York. They see cops pulling guns on kids at a pool party. They see Black People die mysteriously in custody. They see Black Tennis Stars get beat up for standing in the wrong place. Right or wrong, Blacks feel like it is open season on them.

And here is the thing I think they are right. One thing that was said last night about the death in Falcon Heights that was the most poignant was how we keep hearing how he was a good man and he had a clean record and never did anything wrong and that shouldnt matter. He didnt deserve to die. That is what I have been saying for 2 years in threads like this. People look for any reason to impeach the credibility of the victim. Many only get outraged when there is nothing to destroy the victim for. That isnt how it is supposed to be. Just because someone is a bad person doesnt mean they deserve to die. Deadly force should be a last resort, not something used because someone mouths off. (especially since we know if it was dx, or me or Rube we aint getting shot or tazed for it) This isnt Dirty Harry you dont just kill the bad guy. You arent 007 you dont have a license to kill. We have given cops too much leeway because their jobs are tough and scary (and they are I know from firsthand stories) but we cant give them the carte blanche they have now. It is time their authority was checked. And that isnt just to protect us, but to protect them as well.

Agree.

With one sort of minor (but really not) exception. It's this idea that people get the "death penalty" for selling illegal cigarettes. They don't. They die because instead of surrendering they fight with the cops and the cops go way overboard. It's the fighting with the cops that's getting these people killed. The recent Minnesota case is an obviously sad exception. There are more.

 

[unofan]

Source?

The police chief in Dallas.

 

[unofan]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Legally what needs to happen is that the doctrine of qualified immunity needs to be scaled back.

Right now it is so tilted towards the cop that they can literally get away with murder. Because not only is there an objective test, but also a subjective one. We don't just ask, "Would a reasonable person in similar circumstances have felt their life was in danger?" but also "Did that actual cop reasonably believe his life was in danger at the time without benefit of hindsight?"

As I've stated before, this is a two-pronged problem. One is the racial component, but beyond that there is the systematic militarization of the police and the "thin blue line" mentality. The latter affects everyone, but there is no doubt that the former means minorities feel it worse than Whites.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Agree.

With one sort of minor (but really not) exception. It's this idea that people get the "death penalty" for selling illegal cigarettes. They don't. They die because instead of surrendering they fight with the cops and the cops go way overboard. It's the fighting with the cops that's getting these people killed. The recent Minnesota case is an obviously sad exception. There are more.

I have no sympathy for people that fight with cops and get shot. You don't fight with cops and expect to come through unscathed. The cases, like the recent one in Falcon Heights appears to be, where the shooting is unprovoked are completely different situations, IMO. I am normally on the side of the cops in most of these cases, because usually, the suspect is resisting or threatening the safety of the cops, but this Falcon Heights situation seems completely different, and if it went down the way it seems it did, there's no way I'm standing on the side of the cop.

Sadly, after what happened in Dallas, I think it is just going to escalate. Every single cop in the country is going to be on edge now. At the same time, some people that are pulled over, or questioned are also going to be on edge even more than normal. It is really going to cause a volatile situation that could end poorly pretty easily. Hopefully both sides in these encounters are able to keep their composure, but at this point, I see no reason to be optimistic about that.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

I don't know if you could find anyone who would say we should just ignore the racial element of this. But calling it a "race war" is like calling the war on terror a "religious war." It plays right into the hands of the fanatics who pretend that their garden variety terrorism is a romantic struggle between large human groups.

Just like a suicide bombing gets a certain type of person to react "that's Islam at it again," so does this get that same guy to say "there goes those blacks again." That dimwit is giving the violent extremists exactly what they want -- he's making a few psychos the spokesperson for an entire group.

These shootings and (if they were that) counter shootings are an attack on civilization by fearful and angry uncivilized people. The answer is for all civilized people to join hands across these artificial social divides and mutually protect ourselves against the nutbars.

Of course.

But unlike many religious derivatives (ISIL), we can't just assume that this is simply a matter of extremism. There are serious divisive issues (perceived/real racism, policy, etc.) at play here and as Caucasians, its easier to believe there isn't. Ignoring those issues won't address divisiveness that even non extremists on either side maintain about the other.

 

[burd]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

One of my daughters has been dating a black man for several years. He is a good young man, and I'm happy for both of them. Last year, he was pulled over and ticketed in the southern city in which they live. There was no violence involved, but from what I learned of the facts (one sided, I'm sure), he didn't have a chance with the officer. They scraped together enough money to hire defense counsel and beat the charge. It was her first exposure to what she now thinks can be an unfair system.

Ours is a violent, gun-happy culture in which cities of all sizes struggle to provide basic services with fewer dollars. When police are inadequately vetted, bigots get badges. When they are inadequately trained, the fear that decent officers experience in potentially risky situations causes them to do dumb and dangerous things. Add to that the kind of latent racism some have which causes them to think the danger is enhanced when the "suspect" is a black male, you have even more dumb and dangerous choices. In my very limited, small town experience, the people who become interested in police work are often the same people who have been interested in the same activities police are there to protect against. There is an attraction of some sort. I don't know if that is commonplace or just limited to my experience.

Municipalities have to vet better to keep the wrong people out of the ranks and they have to train them better once they are in. More money is not sufficient, but it is necessary. You can't take it from schools and other public support programs that provide medical care and jobs. Perhaps divert more money from the so-called war on drugs here and the war on bad guys abroad. Try, through education and reasonable regulation, to lower the number of guns out there. The proliferation of real guns also adds to the number of imagined guns.

I don't know much about the peer review, prosecutorial side of officer misconduct cases, but something obviously needs to be done to ensure that cops receive the same level of scrutiny others receive. I don't know what that is, but for each case in which a cop gets an undeserved pass there will be many cases in which a deserved pass is perceived as corruption. And like others have said here, once trust is completely lost in a large segment of the population, you have a very serious problem.

All obvious points, I know.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Agree.

With one sort of minor (but really not) exception. It's this idea that people get the "death penalty" for selling illegal cigarettes. They don't. They die because instead of surrendering they fight with the cops and the cops go way overboard. It's the fighting with the cops that's getting these people killed. The recent Minnesota case is an obviously sad exception. There are more.

The cops still killed the guy. Whether you and I call it a death sentence to them it sure seems like one. And lets face facts you wouldnt be killed for what that guy did.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

Legally what needs to happen is that the doctrine of qualified immunity needs to be scaled back.

Right now it is so tilted towards the cop that they can literally get away with murder. Because not only is there an objective test, but also a subjective one. We don't just ask, "Would a reasonable person in similar circumstances have felt their life was in danger?" but also "Did that actual cop reasonably believe his life was in danger at the time without benefit of hindsight?"

As I've stated before, this is a two-pronged problem. One is the racial component, but beyond that there is the systematic militarization of the police and the "thin blue line" mentality. The latter affects everyone, but there is no doubt that the former means minorities feel it worse than Whites.

And we have another bingo!

The fact that all it takes is for a cop to "fear for his life" is one of the worst standards ever. I now people who fear for their lives crossing the street downtown should they be allowed to shoot people who drive by them?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 3: Shoot low boys -- they're ridin' Shetland ponies!

One of my daughters has been dating a black man for several years. He is a good young man, and I'm happy for both of them. Last year, he was pulled over and ticketed in the southern city in which they live. There was no violence involved, but from what I learned of the facts (one sided, I'm sure), he didn't have a chance with the officer. They scraped together enough money to hire defense counsel and beat the charge. It was her first exposure to what she now thinks can be an unfair system.

Ours is a violent, gun-happy culture in which cities of all sizes struggle to provide basic services with fewer dollars. When police are inadequately vetted, bigots get badges. When they are inadequately trained, the fear that decent officers experience in potentially risky situations causes them to do dumb and dangerous things. Add to that the kind of latent racism some have which causes them to think the danger is enhanced when the "suspect" is a black male, you have even more dumb and dangerous choices. In my very limited, small town experience, the people who become interested in police work are often the same people who have been interested in the same activities police are there to protect against. There is an attraction of some sort. I don't know if that is commonplace or just limited to my experience.

Municipalities have to vet better to keep the wrong people out of the ranks and they have to train them better once they are in. More money is not sufficient, but it is necessary. You can't take it from schools and other public support programs that provide medical care and jobs. Perhaps divert more money from the so-called war on drugs here and the war on bad guys abroad. Try, through education and reasonable regulation, to lower the number of guns out there. The proliferation of real guns also adds to the number of imagined guns.

I don't know much about the peer review, prosecutorial side of officer misconduct cases, but something obviously needs to be done to ensure that cops receive the same level of scrutiny others receive. I don't know what that is, but for each case in which a cop gets an undeserved pass there will be many cases in which a deserved pass is perceived as corruption. And like others have said here, once trust is completely lost in a large segment of the population, you have a very serious problem.

All obvious points, I know.

Well stated