Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

[Slap Shot]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

So nana booboo then?

Tell us again how cops are just the worst.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

So nana booboo then?

Tell us again how cops are just the worst.

So get on our knees and grovel?

Tell us again how domestic terrorists can do no wrong.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

So nana booboo then?

Tell us again how cops are just the worst.

Outside of flaggy who is saying all or even most cops are bad? No one...want to try again?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

A pedophile who kills someone is a murderer. And there were threads dedicated to the priest scandals, so you were wrong about that one anyway.

I don't think you're as willfully obtuse as fishy, so you must recognize that cops face greater scrutiny because they are the arm of the government that is empowered to enforce the law by force.

They also get away with more than anyone except for prosecuting attorneys due to the built in immunities in the legal system. An average attorney or doctor still faces malpractice claims and criminal charges if they screw up badly enough. A county attorney has absolute immunity for anything done in the role of a prosecutor. Cops have qualified immunity which is almost as strong.

We get it. Everyday your wife goes to work as a PD and gets her azz handed to her by the evil prosecuting attorneys and cops, and every night you have to listen to her complain about it.

PD's have a thankless, but necessary job, and I for one am happy they're there. But I am also one that is thankful there are people like the cops and prosecutors who have the authority they have, and exercise it.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Outside of flaggy who is saying all or even most cops are bad? No one...want to try again?

I agree, other than Flaggy no one here is saying all cops are bad.

But the point I commented on earlier is that the general tenor of this thread is contempt or ill will for the position of law enforcement officers in general.

Some of us have posted to the effect that certainly there are some bad cops. With that many people in law enforcement, as in any profession with that many people, there are going to be thugs, crooks, bad people in general. They should be prosecuted.

But when we raise that point, people pooh pooh the "few bad apples" argument. There are those who seem to suggest, on a daily basis, that what we really have are only a "few good apples", and the entire orchard is bad.

Frankly, they're just wrong about that.

 

[unofan]

We get it. Everyday your wife goes to work as a PD and gets her azz handed to her by the evil prosecuting attorneys and cops, and every night you have to listen to her complain about it.

PD's have a thankless, but necessary job, and I for one am happy they're there. But I am also one that is thankful there are people like the cops and prosecutors who have the authority they have, and exercise it.

LOL. If that's where you think I'm coming from, you are really misreading me, and my wife.

First off, the day the putzes in the county attorney's office for the county where she works ever hands her butt to her is the day she retires.

Secondly, she thanks the cops for doing a good job, too (I've seen her do it, and the cop's confused expression was priceless). She is fine with losing when they do their jobs correctly because guess what, we live in the area too and like having safe neighborhoods. The key is they have to do it correctly.

I think you'd be surprised how often they don't, especially if they're city or university police (aka mall cops with guns). Law enforcement is definitely an area where the cream of the crop moves to higher levels quickly, and why the state patrol and county sheriffs are almost always better procedurally than the local yokels.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

I agree, other than Flaggy no one here is saying all cops are bad.

But the point I commented on earlier is that the general tenor of this thread is contempt or ill will for the position of law enforcement officers in general.

Some of us have posted to the effect that certainly there are some bad cops. With that many people in law enforcement, as in any profession with that many people, there are going to be thugs, crooks, bad people in general. They should be prosecuted.

But when we raise that point, people pooh pooh the "few bad apples" argument. There are those who seem to suggest, on a daily basis, that what we really have are only a "few good apples", and the entire orchard is bad.

Frankly, they're just wrong about that.

There is reductio ad absurdum at each end of the spectrum -- assuming all cops are devils and assuming all cops are angels. As you point out, cops are merely people and will exhibit the same characteristics with the same frequency as the general population. But that also means that systemic biases, like racism, afflict cops to the same degree as typical people. And that's how we wind up with more young black males in prison than in college.

I think that's all most of us who are criticizing police actions are pointing out, vis a vis the cops.

The other criticism is that cops seem to evade prosecution even when the facts on the ground would send a non-cop to jail. That is not a criticism of policemen, but of our institutions. For all we know, this bothers good cops even more, since they see these guys in action and think of them as unstable co-workers and also a magnet for negative attention and the erosion of public trust.

Anyway, those would be my two big criticisms. I think it's important to stress that the second one isn't an attack on police at all -- it's an attack on our social instinct to assume the guilt of certain segments of the population and thus to issue the cops a "blank warrant" to go after them.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

I agree, other than Flaggy no one here is saying all cops are bad.

But the point I commented on earlier is that the general tenor of this thread is contempt or ill will for the position of law enforcement officers in general.

Some of us have posted to the effect that certainly there are some bad cops. With that many people in law enforcement, as in any profession with that many people, there are going to be thugs, crooks, bad people in general. They should be prosecuted.

But when we raise that point, people pooh pooh the "few bad apples" argument. There are those who seem to suggest, on a daily basis, that what we really have are only a "few good apples", and the entire orchard is bad.

Frankly, they're just wrong about that.

Because, whether you want to admit it or not, it is more than a "few bad apples". There is room between that and the majority.

Put it this way according to a stat I read there was over 765,000 cops in the US in 2008. Even if a small percentage are bad that is still thousands of cops. You can argue semantics til you are blue in the face but that is still a lot of people with a lot of authority who do bad things. (and a system that doesnt exactly "police" the police unless they absolutely have too)

Also remember, not all cops that go too far are "bad apples" either. Most of us dont think that cops go out at night searching for black people to kill. They probably dont go after criminals with an itchy trigger finger either. (or a need to beat their aggression out on someone) They arent bad people but that doesnt mitigate the mistake they make either. Plenty of good people make bad decisions or do bad things in the heat of the moment and cops are human. Problem is when the mistake leads to death (or severe injury) what can be done to fix it?

Cops are trained to protect us, and we should all respect them highly for it. But with that they also have to be held to a higher standard than average rubes on the street. The problem many of us have is that they arent and that the system does not hold them accountable for their actions. Shoot a suspect because he pulls a gun or threatens you, we all back that. But if later it is shown the suspect never had a gun there should be more than just a suspension and lots of people talking about how tough a job it is. The death of someone (even a criminal) should never be excused nor accepted. Committing a crime (outside of murder or rape...and obviously even that doesnt do it sometimes) does not forfeit your right to life.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

Because, whether you want to admit it or not, it is more than a "few bad apples". There is room between that and the majority.

Put it this way according to a stat I read there was over 765,000 cops in the US in 2008. Even if a small percentage are bad that is still thousands of cops. You can argue semantics til you are blue in the face but that is still a lot of people with a lot of authority who do bad things. (and a system that doesnt exactly "police" the police unless they absolutely have too)

Also remember, not all cops that go too far are "bad apples" either. Most of us dont think that cops go out at night searching for black people to kill. They probably dont go after criminals with an itchy trigger finger either. (or a need to beat their aggression out on someone) They arent bad people but that doesnt mitigate the mistake they make either. Plenty of good people make bad decisions or do bad things in the heat of the moment and cops are human. Problem is when the mistake leads to death (or severe injury) what can be done to fix it?

Cops are trained to protect us, and we should all respect them highly for it. But with that they also have to be held to a higher standard than average rubes on the street. The problem many of us have is that they arent and that the system does not hold them accountable for their actions. Shoot a suspect because he pulls a gun or threatens you, we all back that. But if later it is shown the suspect never had a gun there should be more than just a suspension and lots of people talking about how tough a job it is. The death of someone (even a criminal) should never be excused nor accepted. Committing a crime (outside of murder or rape...and obviously even that doesnt do it sometimes) does not forfeit your right to life.

I think every one of us who witnesses certain events that have been videoed by members of the public regarding interactions between the police and the public have at one time or another had a reaction that was akin to w t f was that cop thinking. But I think we always have to step back and consider two things in that regard.

First, you talk about cops being held to a higher standard than the rest of us, due to their position. I believe there is a different standard that cops need to be held to, one that takes into account the duties we impose upon them and the incredible risks inherent in their job.

Somebody here posted about a personal event where a cop pulled them over for a traffic stop and approached with his hand on his gun, as if that were a little aggressive for the situation.

But it really wasn't. Cops are scared each and every time they approach a car for even the most average of traffic stops. We hand these people a gun (or more accurately, require them to buy it), tell them to enforce all of our laws and keep us safe, then send them out into terrifying situations. We're sitting in our car ticked off for being stopped for driving 10 mph over the speed limit and the cop is approaching us with no idea as to whether we're going to shoot him dead. That is the disconnect that most members of the public either don't understand or forget when we judge the conduct of cops.

My second complaint is the use of hindsight to judge. Again, we just have to be very careful when we do that.

Cops who act inappropriately should be prosecuted, and should not be protected. I am 100% in favor of outside law enforcement agencies investigating alleged wrongdoing by cops. If I were a police chief, I'd insist on it just to avoid any possible claim of cover up.

 

[unofan]

I think every one of us who witnesses certain events that have been videoed by members of the public regarding interactions between the police and the public have at one time or another had a reaction that was akin to w t f was that cop thinking. But I think we always have to step back and consider two things in that regard.

First, you talk about cops being held to a higher standard than the rest of us, due to their position. I believe there is a different standard that cops need to be held to, one that takes into account the duties we impose upon them and the incredible risks inherent in their job.

Somebody here posted about a personal event where a cop pulled them over for a traffic stop and approached with his hand on his gun, as if that were a little aggressive for the situation.

But it really wasn't. Cops are scared each and every time they approach a car for even the most average of traffic stops. We hand these people a gun (or more accurately, require them to buy it), tell them to enforce all of our laws and keep us safe, then send them out into terrifying situations. We're sitting in our car ticked off for being stopped for driving 10 mph over the speed limit and the cop is approaching us with no idea as to whether we're going to shoot him dead. That is the disconnect that most members of the public either don't understand or forget when we judge the conduct of cops.

My second complaint is the use of hindsight to judge. Again, we just have to be very careful when we do that.

Cops who act inappropriately should be prosecuted, and should not be protected. I am 100% in favor of outside law enforcement agencies investigating alleged wrongdoing by cops. If I were a police chief, I'd insist on it just to avoid any possible claim of cover up.

Policing isn't even on the list of top ten most dangerous jobs in this country.

Yes, they need to be able to protect themselves, but the narrative that they need to be afraid for their lives every single time they pull someone over in a speed trap is malarky put forth by the police themselves using their own anecdotes as evidence.

FBI stats show 62 cops were killed during traffic stops from 2003-2012. That's 6 or 7 per year out of millions of encounters. By that standard, Black people should be afraid of being shot every time they're pulled over by a cop. I'm guessing the fatality rate is about the same for both.

 

[johnnypohlfan]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

blah, blah, blah...And that's how we wind up with more young black males in prison than in college...blah, blah, blah

You probably had some valid points before and after this part of your statement, but they're lost immediately when you choose to post this nonsensical statistic which has been proven to be a patently false.

 

[unofan]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

For those wondering:

http://www.forcescience.org/nosuchthing.html is where the FBI stat came from.

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/ is where the other assertion came from. Police officer comes in at 14, below taxi driver and garbage men.

Since there are no official databases regarding fatalities at the hands of police, I can't compare police deaths to deaths caused by police.

 

[johnnypohlfan]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

For those wondering:

http://www.forcescience.org/nosuchthing.html is where the FBI stat came from.

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/ is where the other assertion came from. Police officer comes in at 14, below taxi driver and garbage men.

Since there are no official databases regarding fatalities at the hands of police, I can't compare police deaths to deaths caused by police.

You can pick and choose statistics, but the one from your first source that really stands out is that 4,450 officers were assaulted and/or wounded during traffic stops in 2012. So, the fact that a small percentage of these assaults ends up in death, means that the officer shouldn't be at least a tad concerned during every traffic stop? The officer isn't allowed to be afraid of being assaulted and/or wounded? Because that seems to happen at a pretty alarming rate. 4,450 in one year is no joke.

 

[unofan]

You can pick and choose statistics, but the one from your first source that really stands out is that 4,450 officers were assaulted and/or wounded during traffic stops in 2012. So, the fact that a small percentage of these assaults ends up in death, means that the officer shouldn't be at least a tad concerned during every traffic stop? The officer isn't allowed to be afraid of being assaulted and/or wounded? Because that seems to happen at a pretty alarming rate. 4,450 in one year is no joke.

When cops occasionally charge people with assault because their face got in the way of the cop's fist, I take that number with a grain of salt. My all-time favorite are the cops who charged a guy with aggravated assault because he had the nerve to bleed on them after they beat him. Edit: sorry, they charged him with destruction of property for bleeding on their uniforms. My mistake, though the sentiment stands.

It's still going to be high, but since that number comes from police reports, it's going to be somewhat exaggerated.

I can't find an official number for traffic stops per year, but http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pbtss11.pdf at least lets us estimate that roughly 26.5 million people were involved in traffic stops in 2011 as either passengers or the driver (42% of the 63 million people having police contact that year).

And in the grand scheme of things, 4500 assaults out of 26,500,000 encounters is a rate of 17 per hundred thousand. Most cops will never be assaulted, let alone shot, during a traffic stop.

 

[Slap Shot]

Outside of flaggy who is saying all or even most cops are bad? No one...want to try again?

1. Get over yourself
2. This thread exists for a reason
3. Kep is pretty much on record questioning the mental makeup of cops among other things
4. No need to try again the point stands
5. re: #1 No not really but dial back once in a while, Sparky

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

3. Kep is pretty much on record questioning the mental makeup of cops among other things

I am? News to me.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

How can it be news to you? Do,I really have to waste my time going back to find posts in which you've said disparaging things about those that choose to be cops?

I wouldn't say it otherwise - I agree with you on many matters here far more often than not. I'm not close to anyone in the profession so it's never going to be personal for me. This any any preceding thread exist for a reason and I've seen enough to have formed the opinion.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

How can it be news to you? Do,I really have to waste my time going back to find posts in which you've said disparaging things about those that choose to be cops?

Let's not move those goalposts. You said:

questioning the mental makeup of cops

So. Fetch!

 

[walrus]

I am? News to me.

Cops live below the mason dixon, so yes

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain

I am? News to me.

He knows your inner most thoughts and feelings...how dare you question his wisdom!!

He assumes yo speak in absolutes...since you question some cops you hate all cops and think they are evil or stupid even though you have said nothing of the sort.