Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
I endorse this post heartily.
I endorse this post heartily.
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Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
- Thread starter cF[Authentic]
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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Caveat emptor.
Lenders lose money when there is a default. Of course, 2008 was a very special case, because the government paid off the bad loans under threat of martial law, which shows some REAL problems. Under normal situations, you'd take your losses, learn from them, and don't make the same mistakes again. It's quite different when you have a group of cronies intentionally trying to crash an economy.
Caveat emptor.
Lenders lose money when there is a default. Of course, 2008 was a very special case, because the government paid off the bad loans under threat of martial law, which shows some REAL problems. Under normal situations, you'd take your losses, learn from them, and don't make the same mistakes again. It's quite different when you have a group of cronies intentionally trying to crash an economy.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
An ideology can never fail. It can only be failed.
An ideology can never fail. It can only be failed.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
He isn't paying attention. He's too busy giving his buddies the secret Ivy League handshake.
He isn't paying attention. He's too busy giving his buddies the secret Ivy League handshake.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
This alone is justification to break up the big players. They pose an existential threat to the global economy. And the bailout was the single greatest perpetrator of moral hazard in the history of finance.
Everything I've read says we're in an even more precious situation now. It is amazing that 2007-08 didn't teach us that the Boa Constrictor at our throat is our biggest enemy. Not Iran. Not ISIS. These people. Note: those assets are in 10^3 dollars. That's 17 trillion dollars.
This alone is justification to break up the big players. They pose an existential threat to the global economy. And the bailout was the single greatest perpetrator of moral hazard in the history of finance.
Everything I've read says we're in an even more precious situation now. It is amazing that 2007-08 didn't teach us that the Boa Constrictor at our throat is our biggest enemy. Not Iran. Not ISIS. These people. Note: those assets are in 10^3 dollars. That's 17 trillion dollars.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/u...icmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/u...icmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&_r=0
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
The miscalculation/scam was that the banks ignored the covariance - 1000 dice are only safer because the individual rolls are independent. If there are common causes that result in a whole lot of the dice turning up as "1" in bunches, then you don't have independent events. The probability that you default on your mortgage is *not* independent of whether your neighbor defaults on his - those are highly correlated, in fact, and the investment bankers willfully, knowingly, criminally ignored that fact.
Gah. My blood still boils just typing this post....
For the people actually making the loans, there was almost no risk - they could immediately re-sell the paper to investment banks up the chain. The biggest miscalculation (if you're generous, or most disingenuous scheme if you're not) was the investment banks then slicing up those loans and repackaging them as "low risk" mortgage-backed securities - and the credit agencies who let them get away with it. Yes, rolling 1000 dice is "less risky" then rolling one die - with 1000 dice, some of the winners will cancel out some of the losers, and you're a whole lot more likely to land right at the average. The expected value of the roll of a single die is 3.5, but I've never seen anyone roll that yet...
The miscalculation/scam was that the banks ignored the covariance - 1000 dice are only safer because the individual rolls are independent. If there are common causes that result in a whole lot of the dice turning up as "1" in bunches, then you don't have independent events. The probability that you default on your mortgage is *not* independent of whether your neighbor defaults on his - those are highly correlated, in fact, and the investment bankers willfully, knowingly, criminally ignored that fact.
Gah. My blood still boils just typing this post....
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Good.
Now actually get a conviction.
Assuming of course that they did it and it can be proven, innocent until proven and so on...
Good.
Now actually get a conviction.
Assuming of course that they did it and it can be proven, innocent until proven and so on...
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
6 officers were charged. The knife they supposedly arrested the kid for is legal according to the prosecutor. Prosecutor also stated that no on is above the law.
I'm skeptical given the Garner case. But, in this case since he was in custody and not "resisting" (Garner wasn't really either, but he wasn't in custody yet) it could spell trouble for the officers. Not sure what would possess them to do this in the first place.
6 officers were charged. The knife they supposedly arrested the kid for is legal according to the prosecutor. Prosecutor also stated that no on is above the law.
I'm skeptical given the Garner case. But, in this case since he was in custody and not "resisting" (Garner wasn't really either, but he wasn't in custody yet) it could spell trouble for the officers. Not sure what would possess them to do this in the first place.
busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
This might be the most concise explanation of the crisis that I've read. Maybe a bit too constrained since you know there is no way in Hades it was a "miscalculation", but still very well stated. You must spread,,,
Bravo!
This might be the most concise explanation of the crisis that I've read. Maybe a bit too constrained since you know there is no way in Hades it was a "miscalculation", but still very well stated. You must spread,,,
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Knowing that they'd get away with it.
Doubt they thought he'd die although I wonder if they cared beyond themselves potentially getting in trouble.
Even if the knife was illegal and even if he was a murder suspect, doesn't excuse them killing him.
Having him shackled and not putting a seatbelt on him could be key.
Seems that would be SOP.
Could also provide them with an out to get manslaughter as they could (and will) claim that it was an innocent oversight.
Oh yeah... it's gonna be a sh_t show.
Knowing that they'd get away with it.
Doubt they thought he'd die although I wonder if they cared beyond themselves potentially getting in trouble.
Even if the knife was illegal and even if he was a murder suspect, doesn't excuse them killing him.
Having him shackled and not putting a seatbelt on him could be key.
Seems that would be SOP.
Could also provide them with an out to get manslaughter as they could (and will) claim that it was an innocent oversight.
Oh yeah... it's gonna be a sh_t show.
busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Can anyone explain why one officer is being charged with both 2nd degree murder and manslaughter?
I guess I've always thought they were totally separate concepts. Don't they usually charge with the higher offense and drop down if there isn't enough evidence? Am I watching too many Law & Order shows or not enough?
Can anyone explain why one officer is being charged with both 2nd degree murder and manslaughter?
I guess I've always thought they were totally separate concepts. Don't they usually charge with the higher offense and drop down if there isn't enough evidence? Am I watching too many Law & Order shows or not enough?
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
All true, but I come back to it. Nobody forced people to take out these loans. Lets take a hypothetical situation....
Nuke L. Dragaugh goes down to the bank and asks for a loan. Nuke makes 50K a year, not a bad sum to be certain, but he's not liking his middle class neighborhood. He decided he wants to live in the Hamptons, and with no downpayment needs to loan 10M to make his dream happen.
Bank says, no problem Nuke, here's your money, under the guise that 1) they're going to package and sell the mortgage anyway, and 2) housing prices will continue to go up, and if Nuke can't pay loan owner will take house and sell it for a profit.
So, who's to blame when the economy goes south and Nuke can't pay his mortgage? The bank? The institution that bought the loan? The goverment? I say primary responsibility falls to Nuke, who's greed overruled his common sense. Nobody forced him to take out a loan he could not afford. This recession wouldn't have been nearly as severe if it was driven by banks or the government. The collective greed of the American people and the tool they used to fund lifestyles they couldn't afford (debt and borrowing on household equity) made this the worst crisis in 70+ years. That doesn't let banks and regulators off the hook, but you can offer loans at 100% compounding interest all day. There's no requirement for anybody to take one.
All true, but I come back to it. Nobody forced people to take out these loans. Lets take a hypothetical situation....
Nuke L. Dragaugh goes down to the bank and asks for a loan. Nuke makes 50K a year, not a bad sum to be certain, but he's not liking his middle class neighborhood. He decided he wants to live in the Hamptons, and with no downpayment needs to loan 10M to make his dream happen.
Bank says, no problem Nuke, here's your money, under the guise that 1) they're going to package and sell the mortgage anyway, and 2) housing prices will continue to go up, and if Nuke can't pay loan owner will take house and sell it for a profit.
So, who's to blame when the economy goes south and Nuke can't pay his mortgage? The bank? The institution that bought the loan? The goverment? I say primary responsibility falls to Nuke, who's greed overruled his common sense. Nobody forced him to take out a loan he could not afford. This recession wouldn't have been nearly as severe if it was driven by banks or the government. The collective greed of the American people and the tool they used to fund lifestyles they couldn't afford (debt and borrowing on household equity) made this the worst crisis in 70+ years. That doesn't let banks and regulators off the hook, but you can offer loans at 100% compounding interest all day. There's no requirement for anybody to take one.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Wow, I disagree.
The lender holds as much responsibility as the borrower. Some dude walks into your bank and asks you for money you better make sure he can pay it back, or don't give it to him. Same with these credit card folks. They'll give anyone a credit card and then cry foul when the person doesn't pay the bill? Please.
Wow, I disagree.
The lender holds as much responsibility as the borrower. Some dude walks into your bank and asks you for money you better make sure he can pay it back, or don't give it to him. Same with these credit card folks. They'll give anyone a credit card and then cry foul when the person doesn't pay the bill? Please.
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Banks/mortgage lenders knew full well there was a housing bubble and that the exact scenario above would catch up to them eventually. They just didn't do anything about it and then cried bailout.
But the value of the house doesn't always go up. Sometimes the borrower realizes they didn't make a good investment and uses the put option of walking away and now the bank is on the hook for it. It's not always about the borrower not being able to pay.
Banks/mortgage lenders knew full well there was a housing bubble and that the exact scenario above would catch up to them eventually. They just didn't do anything about it and then cried bailout.
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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
There was a case a little while back where one person murdered someone else in a homicide, they charged the one person with manslaughter, and the judge threw it out because the description of what happened did not fit the definition of "manslaughter".
There was a case a little while back where one person murdered someone else in a homicide, they charged the one person with manslaughter, and the judge threw it out because the description of what happened did not fit the definition of "manslaughter".
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
I'm not holding lenders blameless Scooby. What I'm saying is nobody is making you take part in their corruption. I got a mortgage during this time, and they qualified me for double what I wanted. I thanked them for their generosity but insisted upon the amount I could afford if we became a one income household.
Does that make me an object of worship? No, I used the common sense God gave the average domestic dog. People will try to con and sucker you in all ways in all walks of life. You need not take part. People are mostly to blame. If you don't understand the terms of your mortgage, DON'T SIGN THE PAPERWORK!
I'm not holding lenders blameless Scooby. What I'm saying is nobody is making you take part in their corruption. I got a mortgage during this time, and they qualified me for double what I wanted. I thanked them for their generosity but insisted upon the amount I could afford if we became a one income household.
Does that make me an object of worship? No, I used the common sense God gave the average domestic dog. People will try to con and sucker you in all ways in all walks of life. You need not take part. People are mostly to blame. If you don't understand the terms of your mortgage, DON'T SIGN THE PAPERWORK!
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Yeah, I didn't get sucked in either. If I had I'd be in a McMansion somewhere swimming in debt with no hopes of paying it off.
Yeah, I didn't get sucked in either. If I had I'd be in a McMansion somewhere swimming in debt with no hopes of paying it off.
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
And good for you. If the majority of Americans had your sensibility in this matter, that recession would have been a lot, lot less painful no matter how deceptive the lending practices or lazy the regulators were.
And good for you. If the majority of Americans had your sensibility in this matter, that recession would have been a lot, lot less painful no matter how deceptive the lending practices or lazy the regulators were.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Cops 2: Pay No Attention to the Rioters Behind the Curtain
Wait a second, Rover and Scooby using responsibility as an argument? Who the heck hacked their accounts?!
One thing that LF brought up that certainly is true (for those wanting a source, I have first-hand experience with this at Lending Club) is that the loan, from a lender's perspective, is able to be treated as a capital asset. You're able to trade a loan, and investment gain/loss rules take effect either when the loan is traded (in LF's example, sold to investment banks) or defaulted. You don't get the same outcome if the loan is fully paid off, as you just end up paying taxes on the interest you received. Sometimes, you can sell a loan to another invester as a capital gain. It is also true, though, that if the loan is particularly risky, it can be a very expensive game of hot potato, especially if you're left holding it.
Wait a second, Rover and Scooby using responsibility as an argument? Who the heck hacked their accounts?!
One thing that LF brought up that certainly is true (for those wanting a source, I have first-hand experience with this at Lending Club) is that the loan, from a lender's perspective, is able to be treated as a capital asset. You're able to trade a loan, and investment gain/loss rules take effect either when the loan is traded (in LF's example, sold to investment banks) or defaulted. You don't get the same outcome if the loan is fully paid off, as you just end up paying taxes on the interest you received. Sometimes, you can sell a loan to another invester as a capital gain. It is also true, though, that if the loan is particularly risky, it can be a very expensive game of hot potato, especially if you're left holding it.
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