College Football Players---Students or Employees?

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Resubscribed

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

I disagree. As much as I know that many (probably most) of them are self-entitled prima donnas who mistreat women and all the rest, that doesn't make it right that a 3rd party (the universities) should be allowed to make money off of them hand over fist. You can't round up a bunch of starving refugees from Haiti and force them to work in your factory 50 hours per week while paying them next to nothing and refusing to negotiate with them just because "at least they're better off now than they would have been otherwise." That's effectively what universities are doing to their money-making (i.e. football and basketball) athletes.

Well, jees, I would have thought that the 20-30k per year worth of education is pretty good for the 4 months they play football. They're getting plenty, if they're too stupid to figure that out, well then, this education they're getting is lost on them, because they're hopeless.

 

[Priceless]

Well, jees, I would have thought that the 20-30k per year worth of education is pretty good for the 4 months they play football. They're getting plenty, if they're too stupid to figure that out, well then, this education they're getting is lost on them, because they're hopeless.

You really think they only play football for four months? You think the education they receive is worth $20-30K? Let's ask student athletes from UNC how much their education is worth.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

You really think they only play football for four months? You think the education they receive is worth $20-30K? Let's ask student athletes from UNC how much their education is worth.

The value of a one-year Northwestern football scholarship was $76,000+ according to the NLRB decision.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

The value of a one-year Northwestern football scholarship was $76,000+ according to the NLRB decision.

I'm pretty sure that Priceless's point was that the "education" the athletes receive at some schools is not commensurate with the student population at large. Deadspin posted a pic of one-paragraph essay a UNC basketball player handed in on Rosa Parks. It received an A-, allegedly. If all of what Deadspin posted is true, these athletes aren't earning a fraction of the education a normal student does.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

I'm pretty sure that Priceless's point was that the "education" the athletes receive at some schools is not commensurate with the student population at large. Deadspin posted a pic of one-paragraph essay a UNC basketball player handed in on Rosa Parks. It received an A-, allegedly. If all of what Deadspin posted is true, these athletes aren't earning a fraction of the education a normal student does.

True. But then I would argue that what we need is far, far more rigorous entrance standards and accountability on the academic side. Paying players doesn't even come close to solving that.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

I'm pretty sure that Priceless's point was that the "education" the athletes receive at some schools is not commensurate with the student population at large. Deadspin posted a pic of one-paragraph essay a UNC basketball player handed in on Rosa Parks. It received an A-, allegedly. If all of what Deadspin posted is true, these athletes aren't earning a fraction of the education a normal student does.

And who's choice was it to take those BS courses? If the team/coach is forcing students to take bull**** majors, then there is a big problem. If not, then it is the student's fault for squandering a hugely valuable opportunity.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

And who's choice was it to take those BS courses? If the team/coach is forcing students to take bull**** majors, then there is a big problem. If not, then it is the student's fault for squandering a hugely valuable opportunity.

There are reports at some schools where the coaches are dictating to their players which majors they can choose and having special courses created for their athletes so that schoolwork doesn't get in the way of training or eligibility. And I would agree that it's a big problem. Football and basketball are complete messes because of the amount of money out there and schools who've decided to chase the dollar than stay true to their real purpose.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

There are reports at some schools where the coaches are dictating to their players which majors they can choose and having special courses created for their athletes so that schoolwork doesn't get in the way of training or eligibility. And I would agree that it's a big problem. Football and basketball are complete messes because of the amount of money out there and schools who've decided to chase the dollar than stay true to their real purpose.

Then, as dx said, there needs to be NCAA educational reform, not a push to pay players. Find the schools that are doing this, and death penalty the **** out of them.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

There are reports at some schools where the coaches are dictating to their players which majors they can choose and having special courses created for their athletes so that schoolwork doesn't get in the way of training or eligibility. And I would agree that it's a big problem. Football and basketball are complete messes because of the amount of money out there and schools who've decided to chase the dollar than stay true to their real purpose.

In relation to Northwestern, there was evidence that scholarship players were not allowed to miss practice (or parts of it) without their scholarships being taken away. Consequently, given that some courses were not always offered at times where they could be in class on a regular basis, players were essentially unable to take certain majors/classes.

Also, in relation to the argument that they are only playing football 4 months out of the year, people are forgetting: 1) Spring Football; 2) Training Camp; 3) Conditioning during the Off Season; and 4) Bowl Games. Each of these essentially means that players are spending ~50hours/week from the beginning of August through December, then another ~20 hours/week the rest of the season. Couple that with the tremendous amount of control the coaches have over the players (read the NLRB decision to see exactly what I'm talking about), and it is pretty obvious these players are employees (using the common law employee definition that the NLRA essentially does).

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

In relation to Northwestern, there was evidence that scholarship players were not allowed to miss practice (or parts of it) without their scholarships being taken away. Consequently, given that some courses were not always offered at times where they could be in class on a regular basis, players were essentially unable to take certain majors/classes.

Also, in relation to the argument that they are only playing football 4 months out of the year, people are forgetting: 1) Spring Football; 2) Training Camp; 3) Conditioning during the Off Season; and 4) Bowl Games. Each of these essentially means that players are spending ~50hours/week from the beginning of August through December, then another ~20 hours/week the rest of the season. Couple that with the tremendous amount of control the coaches have over the players (read the NLRB decision to see exactly what I'm talking about), and it is pretty obvious these players are employees (using the common law employee definition that the NLRA essentially does).

If you're going to talk bowl games, then we might as well talk about all the swag they get for making even to the Acme Gears Who-Gives-a-F*k bowl.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

If you're going to talk bowl games, then we might as well talk about all the swag they get for making even to the Acme Gears Who-Gives-a-F*k bowl.

Might as well...although I think that relates more to the NCAA Regulations than what the school gives them...and doesn't really deal with whether or not they are employees of the university.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Might as well...although I think that relates more to the NCAA Regulations than what the school gives them...and doesn't really deal with whether or not they are employees of the university.

Right, but I think it relates directly to the "Woe is me" line being trotted out by all of these athletes and using that as a justification to be paid.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Two elements to this discussion that seem under-emphasized to me are the role of agents, and the role of "boosters."

Someone asked earlier, "why can't football players / basketball players take out loans?" Like an agent lends them money against their future earnings as a pro? then they are in debt to this guy but then don't make it as a pro, then what? or some shady character lends them money and then says, "hey, I'll forgive your loan if you miss a few free throws..."

or boosters...."hey, come on down to my car dealership and meet and greet folks, and I'll pay you for that." That kind of practice actually was not all that uncommon, I remember reading an article in Sports Illustrated months ago about how some UCLA basketball players in the 1960s had "jobs" like that.

I don't disagree that the athletes are "used" by their schools. I'm not sure the solution is to allow agents, boosters, and unions also to "use" them as well. yet at the same time, do we want to appoint someone as the guardian ad litem for the players??

As many others have pointed out, the real underlying problem is that the NFL and the NBA are using college sports as their minor leagues. It's not like this in baseball, where a talented player coming out of high school has a real choice to go into the minors or go on to college. and it's even less like this for sports like wrestling or swimming or track and field, there really are very few people who can have a pro career in those sports (though top track athletes apparently can earn a decent wage in Europe).

 

[LynahFan]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

The value of a one-year Northwestern football scholarship was $76,000+ according to the NLRB decision.

Right, but perhaps their true "market value" is $200,000, but we don't know because they can't get it - can't even negotiate for it - because their employer is engaging in business practices that would be illegal in any other industry.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Two elements to this discussion that seem under-emphasized to me are the role of agents, and the role of "boosters."

Someone asked earlier, "why can't football players / basketball players take out loans?" Like an agent lends them money against their future earnings as a pro? then they are in debt to this guy but then don't make it as a pro, then what? or some shady character lends them money and then says, "hey, I'll forgive your loan if you miss a few free throws..."

or boosters...."hey, come on down to my car dealership and meet and greet folks, and I'll pay you for that." That kind of practice actually was not all that uncommon, I remember reading an article in Sports Illustrated months ago about how some UCLA basketball players in the 1960s had "jobs" like that.

I don't disagree that the athletes are "used" by their schools. I'm not sure the solution is to allow agents, boosters, and unions also to "use" them as well. yet at the same time, do we want to appoint someone as the guardian ad litem for the players??

As many others have pointed out, the real underlying problem is that the NFL and the NBA are using college sports as their minor leagues. It's not like this in baseball, where a talented player coming out of high school has a real choice to go into the minors or go on to college. and it's even less like this for sports like wrestling or swimming or track and field, there really are very few people who can have a pro career in those sports (though top track athletes apparently can earn a decent wage in Europe).

Why don't they get a federal student loan and skip this scenario?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Right, but perhaps their true "market value" is $200,000, but we don't know because they can't get it - can't even negotiate for it - because their employer is engaging in business practices that would be illegal in any other industry.

Forgive my being dense , but they can't get what? Payment outside of scholarships?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Forgive my being dense , but they can't get what? Payment outside of scholarships?

Overall compensation, in whatever form it takes.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Overall compensation, in whatever form it takes.

Oh, now I feel stupid. I had completely misread the first few words of your original post. True market value of the scholarship.

You're probably right in that the true market value might be much, much higher. However, I don't think this is cause for them to become employees. Why can't people who are only students collectively bargain to increase their grants and scholarships? Especially when the universities are receiving billions of dollars from federal and private research grants.

Either way, if this gets close to doing some real damage to football schools, you can be d*mned sure that the politicians from the south, Big Ten, and other football-centric regions will pass the requisite laws exempting the NCAA.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Oh, now I feel stupid. I had completely misread the first few words of your original post. True market value of the scholarship.

No worries.

You're probably right in that the true market value might be much, much higher. However, I don't think this is cause for them to become employees.

The fact that they're getting a raw deal (relative to market value) is not what makes them employees. The fact that the university requires 50 hrs/week of work, dictates where they live, who they associate with, etc, in exchange for compensation makes them employees. GIVEN that they're considered to be employees, then the employer has to allow them to negotiate and can't collude with other employers to depress compensation.

Why can't people who are only students collectively bargain to increase their grants and scholarships? Especially when the universities are receiving billions of dollars from federal and private research grants.

The university does not exert nearly the control over "regular students" as they do for athletes, so regular students would not be considered to be employees. I understand your thinking, though: "why should Deadbeat U charge me $50K in tuition when they're already getting billions in research grants?" A valid, but separate, question.

Either way, if this gets close to doing some real damage to football schools, you can be d*mned sure that the politicians from the south, Big Ten, and other football-centric regions will pass the requisite laws exempting the NCAA.

Truest thing posted on this thread...