Climate Change 3: Whatever you do don't call it a twatwaffle

[Kepler]

Fossil fuels are like slavery. Vested interests and regressive personalities will hang on to it long after it is economically and ethically toxic.

Stop subsidizing it with incentives and armies and let the market kill it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

We could have a solar revolution at the end points in Texas and solve the summer problem. The winter problem would have never happened if they actually had winterized their grid. But all that would take money out of the fat cats wallets. So, death for the masses is a better solution.

Let Texas burn or freeze. I don't fucking care.

 

[The Sicatoka]

We need more generation near the end users. We already lose 25% of all electricity to transmission.

solar, wind, with nuclear and sunsetting natural gas. Coal should die tomorrow.

Your "25%" is about 5x high, but even 5% is too much loss. (I get upset when it's over 3% on the system I'm on; vegetation management solves most of the loss issues but you can see that "tree trimming" bill and ignore a percent on an overall monthly report.)

Until we have large scale energy storage tech (to account for night, or windless days) we're stuck with coal and nat gas to cover baseline load. Things like Project Tundra will bridge the gap.

And you all know I'm pro-nuke. Gen IV nuclear design is hopefully the way forward. ('Portable' would be even better to help match generation to load.)

But we're talking two to four decades and hundreds of billions in investments to convert over. And "ESG" ratings have scared capital away from projects that we need to bridge the gap to a low carbon future. (That's not me, that's Ernie Moniz when I heard him speak recently.)

 

[Swansong]

I find it amusing that Texas going their own way on power grid, then letting is become a mess, is somehow a failure of renewable energy and not, you know, the fucking obvious problem.


This is like pointing to drug seizures at the border and declaring it bad because Biden.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

I find it amusing that Texas going their own way on power grid, then letting is become a mess, is somehow a failure of renewable energy and not, you know, the fucking obvious problem.


This is like pointing to drug seizures at the border and declaring it bad because Biden.

It's the Republican way. Has been their core "policy" format for decades.

 

[The Sicatoka]

I find it amusing that Texas going their own way on power grid, then letting is become a mess, is somehow a failure of renewable energy and not, you know, the fucking obvious problem.

ERCOT the grid has always been its own grid. (The US grid isn't one but many sub-grids managed regionally: ERCOT, CAISO, MISO, SPP, Southwest, et al.)

ERCOT the regulating body got stupid. When wind and solar were coming online there was surplus energy. Rates were low, too low*. Then with the new wind and solar, baseline sources (coal, gas) fell from favor. Those facilities began to be closed. But Texas is growing, as is its demand. ERCOT's mistake is deregulation of production sources. They didn't mandate baseline is covered and thus coal was shut down for "market" renewables (aka unreliables). Thus you get yesterday (or Feb 2021): no wind and max demand creating grid shortfall and the potential of "managed outages" (aka rolling blackouts).

MISO is staring that in the face right now also.


*The subsidy for wind (and solar) was so good that it was worth keeping the tower turning even when there was no load demand. The contracts were written "must buy at set price" (ouch for retailers) or the wind farms would sell at a loss (yes, even negative prices, they pay you to take it) because they'd still get the production tax credits which were worth more than wholesale prices at -$0.025 per kWh. It created a false market when the wind was blowing and the sun shining and the remaining fossil plants running.

 

[Swansong]

Yeah, totally. ERCOT not doing any winterization or materially increasing supply (as demand goes up) is so obviously the fault of <checks notes> a minor increase in wind and solar generation that it boggles the mind that people don't regurgitate Fox News talking points about it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Thus, the problem never has been and never will be renewables. Thanks for stating the obvious. The problem is greedy fucking white men in Texas. Always has been, always will be.

 

[The Sicatoka]

I strongly recommend folks here read "Shorting the Grid: The Hidden Fragility of Our Electric Grid" by Meredith Angwin.

It explains ISOs, markets, the dawning of renewables, the transition to them, and the electrical and market impacts. You don't have to be a power company wonk to read and understand it.

After you finish it, you'll wonder how the lights stay on.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Put it this way. Greed and Capitalism are incredibly great and efficient engines for any economy. But, pure capitalism which is Republicans end goal is horrible policy for gas, energy, baby formula, and transportation. i.e. any human necessity.

We have in the United States a FAILED regulation state. The Regulation state is failing everything for its citizens. The Republicans answer is the elimination of regulation which has only served to make things worse. The Democrats answer is to cede power to the Republicans. Expect the US to exhibit more and more third world tendencies as it progresses further and further down the deregulation rabbit hole.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

I don't have to read it. This says it all.

Grid insiders know how fragile the grid is becoming. Unfortunately, they have no incentive to solve the problems because near-misses increase their profits.

There is a simple solution to the problem.

 

[unofan]

ERCOT the grid has always been its own grid. (The US grid isn't one but many sub-grids managed regionally: ERCOT, CAISO, MISO, SPP, Southwest, et al.)

ERCOT the regulating body got stupid. When wind and solar were coming online there was surplus energy. Rates were low, too low*. Then with the new wind and solar, baseline sources (coal, gas) fell from favor. Those facilities began to be closed. But Texas is growing, as is its demand. ERCOT's mistake is deregulation of production sources. They didn't mandate baseline is covered and thus coal was shut down for "market" renewables (aka unreliables). Thus you get yesterday (or Feb 2021): no wind and max demand creating grid shortfall and the potential of "managed outages" (aka rolling blackouts).

MISO is staring that in the face right now also.


*The subsidy for wind (and solar) was so good that it was worth keeping the tower turning even when there was no load demand. The contracts were written "must buy at set price" (ouch for retailers) or the wind farms would sell at a loss (yes, even negative prices, they pay you to take it) because they'd still get the production tax credits which were worth more than wholesale prices at -$0.025 per kWh. It created a false market when the wind was blowing and the sun shining and the remaining fossil plants running.

ERCOT is more than just an RTO. It's its own fucking grid, separated from both the East and West (and Mexico) with very few interconnecting seems.

MISOs problems are caused by some states in its footprint letting their generation lag, not from excess reliance on wind or solar. Iowa is the largest per capita wind generation state in the country, but it's not the reason for MISOs issues. And MISO has more wiggle room because it's still part of the overall eastern grid, unlike ERCOT.

Negative wind pricing is mainly an overnight issue when demand is low, and has relatively little impact on overall generation requirements which must be built to meet peak demand during late afternoons in the summers. And let's not ignore the ginormous built in subsidies for coal and natural gas that keep them relatively cheap and distort the market, too..

So I call bullshiat on your underlying presumption that renewables are the issue.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

https://twitter.com/bruceritchie/status/1546858980701618182

James Fenton of the Florida Solar Energy Center is giving a presentation to the @floridapsc
, says 73 percent of primary energy is wasted from production in power plants to homes -- "hideous" waste of billions of dollars spent on energy.

Fenton to @floridapsc
: There are more jobs in rooftop solar installation in Florida than utility installation — 6,839 vs. 89. And solar on rooftops with battery storage will be as cheap by 2030 as utility solar.

Fenton says by 2030 all vehicles will have more storage than utilities are installing. "How do we go ahead and use that battery to help with the grid and help with resiliency?" he asks. $1.80 per gallon equivalent to fuel a Ford F-150 electric pick up vs. $4-plus for gasoline

"It is now cheaper to save the climate than destroy it," Fenton says in conclusion.

James M. Fenton is the Director of the UCF Florida Solar Energy Center, where he leads a staff of 90 in the research and development of energy technologies that enhance Florida's and the nation's economy and environment and educate the public, students and practitioners on the results of the research.

https://mse.ucf.edu/person/james-fenton/

 

[The Sicatoka]

ERCOT is more than just an RTO. It's its own fucking grid, separated from both the East and West (and Mexico) with very few interconnecting seems.

ERCOT the grid has always been its own grid. (The US grid isn't one but many sub-grids managed regionally: ERCOT, CAISO, MISO, SPP, Southwest, et al.)

I quit reading when I realized you didn't read.

 

[Swansong]

And you quit learning years ago.

 

[burd]

For as long as they are willing to take the guff, I'm glad Sic and Hovey continue to post their contrarian views (here, at least). The choirbox is full, and it's vocal. I may disagree with most of what they say, but as Justice Holmes once put it:

[W]hen men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas—that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market . . . .

The competition part.

 

[SJHovey]

For as long as they are willing to take the guff, I'm glad Sic and Hovey continue to post their contrarian views (here, at least). The choirbox is full, and it's vocal. I may disagree with most of what they say, but as Justice Holmes once put it:

[W]hen men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas—that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market . . . .

The competition part.

Ah, see I prefer this quote (not from Holmes). It used to be in my signature on this board until the revamp by board eliminated signatures.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes the freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our conviction in the open lists, to win or lose.

Since I don't think we've quite hit that point in the final clause yet, I'll still toss my comments onto the open lists. :>)

 

[unofan]

I quit reading when I realized you didn't read.

The point is ERCOT and MISO are not equivalent entities, which is what you implied with the second half of your own quoted post.

 

[Kepler]

Ah, see I prefer this quote (not from Holmes). It used to be in my signature on this board until the revamp by board eliminated signatures.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes the freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our conviction in the open lists, to win or lose.

Since I don't think we've quite hit that point in the final clause yet, I'll still toss my comments onto the open lists. :>)

Face-Eating Leopard supporters deeply troubled others reject Face-Eating, on grounds of "protecting diversity of opinion."

 

[burd]

Ah, see I prefer this quote (not from Holmes). It used to be in my signature on this board until the revamp by board eliminated signatures.

That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes the freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our conviction in the open lists, to win or lose.

Since I don't think we've quite hit that point in the final clause yet, I'll still toss my comments onto the open lists. :>)

Yeah, but you're full of shyt.