CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

[Freddie]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

I do not like the shootout, and find ties quite acceptable.

Sometimes, a tie is a tie- both teams were even, whether that was bad even or good even- they were even. Seems to be ok that they tied to me.

Some times a tie is a victory or a loss- getting that tying goal in the last few min of a game and holding onto that is a pretty good way to finsih a game. Or if you've managed to hold a high power team to equal goals while being out played- then a tie is a win.

Why in the world do we NEED to define a winner during the regular season- I just don't understand that. The regular season is a body of work to determine if and where you belong in a post season event. There's no NEED to have a winner.

Anyway, having seen one SO, that was more than enough for me. Boring.

I am NOT a fan of the shootout, and consider myself a purest when it comes to most of the things I love:

*I don't like the DH in baseball or the 3 point shot in basketball.
*I can't imagine ANY circumstances under which it should be proper to use the words "light" and "beer" in the same sentence. (except, of course, when done to prove the point that it shouldn't be done).
*Creative artistry in rock music died with Duane Allman.
*Team sports should be TEAM sports.

Sadly, you and I (along with most of those who post here) are, but a tiny fraction of a small minority within a vast sea of potential consumers. If the CCHA, NCAA, ESPN or BigTenNetwork even THINK shootouts put more butts-in-the-seats or attract more ratings, we're gonna get shootouts, like it or not.

Generations of Americans have been convinced that: "Tide" really is 'New and Improved', we all need and deserve a new car every two years, and that the path to personal fulfillment can only be found with a solid credit report and an firm erection.

Need proof?
*4 of the top 5 selling beers in the USA are 'light' or 'lite' beers (oops, I broke my own rule).
*BonJovi tickets at The Palace of Auburn Hills are advertised (and selling) for up to $530 each.
*It seems that a substantial number of people have become convinced that Kid Rock has talent and/or something meaningful to say.
*Tonight's NHL highlight reel is MUCH more likely to feature the shootout goal that 'won' the game, than the yeoman's work of the backchecking forward whose selfless play preserved the tie that preceded that shootout.

Myself, I'd rather see tied games played to completion via regulation 5x5 sudden death OT, with the winner getting both points, and the loser gets squat. The 5 minute OT is just too short, and doesn't force teams to roll all their lines.

Too many games stay tied through OT because most teams don't play OT to 'win', they focus on playing NOT to lose. Too often this mindset creeps well back into the third period of tied games. Ten skaters all bunched up between the blue lines creates about as much excitement as competitive flossing.

My choice: winner-take-all OT. But if the powers-that-be INSIST on shootout I'll learn to live with it, just like I live with the DH.

This ends tonight's rant. I think I'm going to dig through the old vinyl and dust off my copy of The Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore. If memory serves me correctly, the 23 minute version of 'Whipping Post' that makes up the entire 4th side is just enough time to roll and smoke a joint.

 

[streaker]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

And that's the point. Fans never stayed away because games can end in a tie. They'll never make the point to come if they otherwise would not in the hopes of seeing a SO.



I would hope no player would EVER leave the rink satisfied their opponent earned more points than they did. This has to be one of the more stupid things I have ever seen posted on USCHO. If they do please let them play for whatever team you root for. I wouldn't want them within a thousand miles of my team.

Yep, and last I checked, we weren't given a vote as to whether we wanted it or not- the CCHA agreed to try it "for the fans". Well, I would say that, based on this small sampling size, that it isn't working.

Secondly, to the last point, +1.

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Sadly, you and I (along with most of those who post here) are, but a tiny fraction of a small minority within a vast sea of potential consumers. If the CCHA, NCAA, ESPN or BigTenNetwork even THINK shootouts put more butts-in-the-seats or attract more ratings, we're gonna get shootouts, like it or not.

If the SO actually put more butts in seats, or more eyeballs to the nearest TV screen showing hockey (college or the NHL) I could almost accept it (almost, and very begrudgingly). I'm not a fan of seatbelt laws for adults because of a bit of a rabid libertarian streak in me, but I live with them for a couple of reasons. One, I wear mine anyway, all of the time. And two, because they have been shown to save lives. Lots of lives. Point being if this shootout thing actually won more fans it would be a small price to pay for us purists to see some much needed growth in our game. But it just doesn't work that way.

What I am curious about is the breakdown of support and opposition for the shootout. It would be nice if someone got along to doing a true survey to figure out if it should be kept, expanded, or done away with. Along what lines do casual fans versus the diehards break down? Older fans versus younger? People who attend a lot of hockey versus those who get to maybe just 1 or 2 games a year? New fans (regardless of how much they "like" the sport) versus fans who have been watching for 5, 10, or more years?

 

[pierre maguire]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Irishhockeyfan I think you're missing the point of my statement. I'm referring to the opportunity to win a game in a shoot out rather than have overtime end and the game declared a tie. Have you played the game at a high level? Ever been in a shootout? If you haven't I'd stop preaching to everyone cause you have no idea what it's like to be involved. As someone who has played at a high level and been apart of a SO I'd rather have the chance to win a game in a shootout and lose than finish in a tie.

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Irishhockeyfan I think you're missing the point of my statement. I'm referring to the opportunity to win a game in a shoot out rather than have overtime end and the game declared a tie. Have you played the game at a high level? Ever been in a shootout? If you haven't I'd stop preaching to everyone cause you have no idea what it's like to be involved. As someone who has played at a high level and been apart of a SO I'd rather have the chance to win a game in a shootout and lose than finish in a tie.

So suddenly the only people who are entitled to an opinion in this matter are those who have played the game at some indeterminate "high level" and have been involved at that level in a shootout? Well my friend you better start preaching to a whole lot of people around these parts since there aren't many former NHLers or Hobey Baker winners amongst our posting community.

That strikes me as the same argument that because I (or the rest of us) have never coached at a "high level" there is no way any of us are qualified to have a negative opinion about a poor performance by a coach. Get real. Your opinion differs from mine. Doesn't make you right. Or me for that matter. I'm just stating fact when I say hockey is not grown by the inclusion of a shootout nor do the leagues where the shootout hasn't been adopted see fans leaving because of the possibility of a tie. For the last few years that is one of the major reason shootouts have been sold to us as "necessary."

You don't like ties, play the game until one team scores one more goal than the other team. And you always have a chance to win a game anyway. Its called score more goals in the first 60 minutes than the other guys. And players I have spoken with (you know, high level guys like Notre Dame hockey players) have all sorts of opinions on the shootout. Some like it a lot, others don't at all and most are just OK with whatever the hell is done. Funny how some of the most team oriented guys I know were the ones who really didn't care for the shootout. And like most die hard fans, they also appreciate the idea behind good and bad ties, and before the shootout came into being in the CCHA have been more than happy to have a game end after 65 minutes still tied.

 

[alfablue]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Why not ask the players what they want?

Do you think they were asked about the SO?

As a former player, I would be ****ed that 65min of playing is decided on by a skills competition- making a TEAM game decided purely on a 1-1 basis. The players are more than welcome to use the opportunity to actually WIN the game, and as I pointed out, many, many ties are considered wins by one team and losses by the other. Been there, done that.

IMHO, which does matter, since my ticket sales + hockey club donations heavily FUND the hockey program where I go to watch, the SO dilutes a team game to an individual one. Having seen too much individualism over some of the past few seasons, I don't want to see it endorsed by the rules.

 

[1/2 nook]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

What I am curious about is the breakdown of support and opposition for the shootout. It would be nice if someone got along to doing a true survey to figure out if it should be kept, expanded, or done away with. QUOTE]

FSN did a text poll during a DU game and 88% said they wanted a shootout.

 

[Arpod]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

You are normally a voice of reason and logic on this forum, but I fear you are missing a central point. Americans DEMAND that ANY type of competition arrive eventually at a point that separates WINNERS from LOSERS. Whether in business, athletics, or armed combat; there MUST be a winner and a loser. Anything less starts us down that 'slippery slope' leading to a "Thank You For Participating" award for everybody.

I sincerely believe that too frequent 'ties' are one major reason why this sport (which we love so much) has never been embraced in the USA on the same level as football, baseball, NASCAR or even golf. Canadians, on the other hand, are more willing to accept ties in their 'national past time' for two basic reasons:

1. Being buried up to their elbows in snow for the majority of the year, they have been sapped of their strength.
2. The same passive attitude that keeps them under a self-imposed allegiance to the English crown. They never had the stones to have a true revolution or any great civil war...they insist on treating conquered savages with dignity (First Nation, HA! Uncle Sam knows what to do with those losers...kill them off, then name sports teams after them). Any country that falls into the pseudo-commie clap-trap of feeling a need to insure that all their people have access to a solid education and decent health care without regard to financial status...well they can certainly deal with a few hockey games ending in ties. But it will never work here! Not in this US of A.

We need winners so we can worship them, at least until we tire of them, then we love to watch them destroy themselves. Tiger Woods, Mark McGwire, Kobe Bryant, Mel Gibson, Donald Trump.

We need losers so we feel better about ourselves. Horatio Alger loves the Chicago Cubs, Michigan Tech and Sarah Palin. Hope springs eternal... "we'll get 'em next time!"

As the winners fall from grace, they become lovable again and we root for them to persevere through some sort of reorganization, rebuilding or rehab, then the whole process can repeat itself.

Their were no ties at Bunker Hill, Gettysburg or Normandy. There will never be a tie in the World Series, at the Daytona 500 or The Masters. No matter how many 'hanging chads' there might have been in Florida, Bush & Gore were never going to be roomies at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Sooner or later Pepsi or Coke will prevail,

Surely, you see the error in your logic now. Ties disrupt the natural ebb and flow of the American Dream and, therefore, need to be broken. Thank you.

Word.

 

[MUhawks628]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

FSN did a text poll during a DU game and 88% said they wanted a shootout.

This is far too important to be left up to the people

 

[TGB]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

here's a different angle. i personally was never a fan of the shootout but they've grown on me for a different reason that i'd ever thought of before.

i go to a lot of Wings games and am a season ticket holder for MSU. the main difference btwn the two crowds is the number of kids in attendance. i'll take mine to the Wings if they have a great ticket deal but it's a lot more expensive to go to the NHL than college hockey. if you give me that assumption, it'll lead you to my point of why they are good for the CCHA.

with all the kids in the stands, most of which play hockey or have friends that play hockey, the shootout is a good reinforcement of the movement with USA hockey to develop better puck skills. i'm a youth hockey coach and we are always working on hand skills, both on the ice and in dry land training. it's paying off for USA hockey. look at this year's olympic team or the US Junior gold medal team; ever kid on those teams can move the puck and handle it in tight situations. the shootout is a great reinforcer to kids about the need to always work on your puck skills.

a lot of folks have made very valid points about it not being a true finish to a hockey game, and i agree. but, for the regular season, with all the kids in attendance at these games, i've seen some actual benefit for youth hockey players who watch the shootouts and then try to replicate the moves in practices and game situations.

i'd like to see it stay, even though MSU sucks at it.

 

[Freddie]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

I can't imagine how any type of polling could ever accurately answer this question. It would take a HUGE sampling; subdivided by age, income, education, location and all sorts of other demographics. Does the sample include only those who regularly watch hockey?...How about people who consider themselves 'sports fans' but don't follow much hockey?...Should the opinions of those who have never seen a game be considered?

Let's face it, those of us who love hockey are not going to turn our backs on the game because of shootouts. Yes, we may gripe about it, and years from now we'll mumble to our grandchildren about the 'good old days' when they used to play real hockey, with ties and everything!

Someone said earlier that they doubt anybody ever stayed away from a game because of the possibility of a tie. I suggest that a casual fan may do just that...especially if they are new to the game. A quick look through this year's standings shows that 19 D1 teams (that's 1/3 of the teams) have had 6 or more ties this year. If that new fan goes to one or two games and they end without a winner, its easy for him to jump to the conclusion that hockey games are a pointless exercise in futility...like soccer, or the date that ends with a handshake.

The enlightened fan can be satisfied when his team earns that 'good' tie. The enlightened fan understands how much the point lost in that 'bad' tie might cost when the final standings are compiled. The enlightened fan can walk home drenched in sweat from the excitement of a well played scoreless tie.

Mister and Missus Newbie don't get it. Next Friday night they'll go to the movies or take the kids to Chuckey Cheese. This doesn't, necessarily, make them idiots...just typical American consumers. They've got X-amount money to spend on entertainment, and lots of choices about where they spend it.

As I've said before, I'm not an advocate of the shootout (I believe the vast majority of ties would be broken by lengthening the OT) but I can learn to live with them. A shootout can be an exciting spectacle. It provides closure and allows the customers to leave on a high note. Any entertainment promoter will testify to the value of making that solid last impression.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

here's a different angle. i personally was never a fan of the shootout but they've grown on me for a different reason that i'd ever thought of before...

...with all the kids in the stands, most of which play hockey or have friends that play hockey, the shootout is a good reinforcement of the movement with USA hockey to develop better puck skills. i'm a youth hockey coach and we are always working on hand skills, both on the ice and in dry land training. it's paying off for USA hockey. look at this year's olympic team or the US Junior gold medal team; ever kid on those teams can move the puck and handle it in tight situations. the shootout is a great reinforcer to kids about the need to always work on your puck skills.

a lot of folks have made very valid points about it not being a true finish to a hockey game, and i agree. but, for the regular season, with all the kids in attendance at these games, i've seen some actual benefit for youth hockey players who watch the shootouts and then try to replicate the moves in practices and game situations...

Interesting take, and no doubt true.

I must say, though, that this shootout benefit is a drop in the bucket compared to the real issue. Over the years I've become very concerned that kids no longer play the game unless it's adult supervised and on indoor ice. Want to develop puck skills? Play the game. On the pond. On the backyard rink. In the street. In the basement. In a gym. Play Roller Hockey. Whatever! It's the countless hours spent playing with other kids that develop these skills. There will never be enough indoor ice time to do job, despite the best efforts of good coaches like you.

 

[TGB]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Interesting take, and no doubt true.

I must say, though, that this shootout benefit is a drop in the bucket compared to the real issue. Over the years I've become very concerned that kids no longer play the game unless it's adult supervised and on indoor ice. Want to develop puck skills? Play the game. On the pond. On the backyard rink. In the street. In the basement. In a gym. Play Roller Hockey. Whatever! It's the countless hours spent playing with other kids that develop these skills. There will never be enough indoor ice time to do job, despite the best efforts of good coaches like you.

does the 30 foot by 50 foot sheet in my backyard count, even though it isn't a "pond"

i agree that the reason i outlined isn't a definitive reason for keeping it but sometimes decisions carry unintended consequences which are sometimes a benefit. i think the shootout is a good example of this.

 

[pierre maguire]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Irishhockeyfan agree to disagree. Obviously what I was trying to say got lost in translation. My orignal point was that they should ASK the players if they like it or not. If they polled the players and found that an over whelming majority liked or disliked the shootout, then they could decide make a decision based on that. As for the "it's not a true finish to a game" or "it's a skills contest" argument, I think that's old and holds no water. EVERY single sport in the US has altered and changed their rules and game in order to attract new fans and/or create more excitement, so why not hockey? Whether you like it or not, we can argue this until we're blue in the face but the shoot out is here to stay and it's probably just a matter of time until all leagues in the NCAA adopt it.

 

[streaker]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Irishhockeyfan agree to disagree. Obviously what I was trying to say got lost in translation. My orignal point was that they should ASK the players if they like it or not. If they polled the players and found that an over whelming majority liked or disliked the shootout, then they could decide make a decision based on that. As for the "it's not a true finish to a game" or "it's a skills contest" argument, I think that's old and holds no water. EVERY single sport in the US has altered and changed their rules and game in order to attract new fans and/or create more excitement, so why not hockey? Whether you like it or not, we can argue this until we're blue in the face but the shoot out is here to stay and it's probably just a matter of time until all leagues in the NCAA adopt it.

Which is why HEA had it and dropped it years ago. I view it as the same as the health care debate. It doesn't much matter what the people's majority want, it is what the politicians in power want. Same applies to the CCHA administration.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

does the 30 foot by 50 foot sheet in my backyard count, even though it isn't a "pond."

Absolutely!

When I was growing up we had a couple of different backyard set-ups. One was 40x50 feet. I guess we were playing on Olympic Ice.

i agree that the reason i outlined isn't a definitive reason for keeping it but sometimes decisions carry unintended consequences which are sometimes a benefit. i think the shootout is a good example of this.

I'll buy that.

 

[hudspart]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

You are normally a voice of reason and logic on this forum, but I fear you are missing a central point. Americans DEMAND that ANY type of competition arrive eventually at a point that separates WINNERS from LOSERS. Whether in business, politics, athletics, or armed combat; there MUST be a winner and a loser. Anything less starts us down that 'slippery slope' leading to a "Thank You For Participating" award for everybody.

I sincerely believe that too frequent 'ties' are one major reason why this sport (which we love so much) has never been embraced in the USA on the same level as football, baseball, NASCAR or even golf. Canadians, on the other hand, are more willing to accept ties in their 'national past time' for two basic reasons:

1. Being buried up to their elbows in snow for the majority of the year, they have been sapped of their strength.
2. The same passive attitude that keeps them under a self-imposed allegiance to the English crown. They never had the stones to have a true revolution or any great civil war...they insist on treating conquered savages with dignity (First Nation, HA! Uncle Sam knows what to do with those losers...kill them off, then name sports teams after them). Any country that falls into the pseudo-commie clap-trap of feeling a need to assure that all their people have access to a solid education and decent health care without regard to financial status...well, they can certainly deal with a few hockey games ending in ties. But it will never work here! Not in the good old US of A.

We need winners so we can worship them, at least until we tire of them, then we revel in watching them self-destruct. Tiger Woods, Mark McGwire, Kobe Bryant, Mike Vick, Mel Gibson, Donald Trump.

We need losers so we feel better about ourselves. Horatio Alger would love the Chicago Cubs, Michigan Tech and Sarah Palin. Hope springs eternal... "we'll get 'em next time!"

As the winners fall from grace, they become lovable again and we root for them to persevere through some sort of rebuilding process, financial reorganization or rehab program, then the whole process can repeat itself.

Their were no ties at Bunker Hill, Gettysburg or Normandy. There will never be a tie in the World Series, Daytona 500 or The Masters. No matter how many 'hanging chads' there might have been in Florida, Bush & Gore were never going to be roomies at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Sooner or later Pepsi or Coke will prevail.

Surely, you see the error in your logic now. Ties disrupt the natural ebb and flow of the American Dream and, therefore, need to be broken. Thank you.

To quote Otto from A Fish Called Wanda, "We didn't lose Vietnam. It was a tie!"

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

To quote Otto from A Fish Called Wanda, "We didn't lose Vietnam. It was a tie!"

And to think... a lot of people would rather have lost in Vietnam than tied there.

 

[Orac]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

They don't bother me. Nor do I require them. Ties to me though, after 65 minutes of hockey are a little anticlimactic.

What is anti-climactic, is waiting for the zamboni to clear the ice, and then watching a snooze-fest of a skills competition immediately after an intense sudden death OT period!

 

[Orac]

Re: CCHA Fans, Re: Shootouts.

Nobody will start going to college hockey games bc there's a chance they might see a shootout, just as the NHL hasn't started getting more fans bc they've added shootouts.

Shootouts aren't the worst thing in the world, but they still suck.

Exactly, what (sane) non-hockey fan is going to sit down to watch a 2.5 hour game because it MIGHT go to a shootout???