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Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an election

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Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Kepler said:
Except I have no paranoia in the least about religion as a whole, or even Christianity as a whole. That's just you cloaking the tiny, nutbar segments which I am (and most people are) concerned about with the much larger body of believers who manage to get through the day without telling others how to live.

Here's the Cliff Notes version so if you keep making that mistake at least we'll know it's an intentional tactic rather than an honest mistake:

(1) Believers as a whole who understand that public space is not their ideological property are fine. Their beliefs in the supernatural are factually wrong, but that makes no material difference and hey if it helps them live better lives or face the purposelessness of life, then good for them. Hobbies are good. They should be ribbed, gently, in the spirit of good clean fun. They make up somewhere between 80-90% of all believers. If you are among them, please come in.

(2) Literalist nutbars who think scripture is inerrant and that the Word of God (whichever) trumps the law are potentially dangerous and deserving of nothing but scorn. Insofar as they only torture themselves and their immediate family, they should be left alone. To the degree that they start metastasizing into a cancer that is capable of attacking others, they should be stopped. There is nothing fun about them. They make up somewhere between 10-20% of all believers. If you are among them, please go away.
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On number two, I think it's a mistake to lump people who think scripture is in some fashion (and there are many difference in understanding of what "inerrant" means) in with people who think the Word of God trumps the law. Those are two very different things and from my perspective do not necessarily go in tandem at all. Most people I know that believe in some form of inerrancy also strongly believe in respecting the laws of the land and would only go against the laws in extreme cases (as would pretty much all people under certain extreme circumstances). To me it's very much a render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and also there are a number of New Testament verses that talk about respecting the governmental leaders who are in place (again excepting extreme circumstances when civil disobedience or such might be called for). Take the example of abortion, where the vast vast majority of those who think abortion is murder are peaceful and condemn the occasional act of violence against an abortion doctor and such.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Bob Gray said:
You're making ridiculously extreme assumptions about what Christians think and want in government, with no foundation for doing so. You simply don't understand.
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No, Bob, you don't understand. Perhaps you're biased in your branch of Christianity that has some semblance of sanity when it comes to running the government, but when I look at things my very vocal, formerly-fallen-Catholic cousin posts to hi wall about wanting the Bible inserted into the federal government and getting a ****-ton of likes from his friends and other family, I'm seeing exactly what I've stated here. And I see other posts made by other cousins that are less vocal, less vociferous even, but still to the same end goal. Perhaps you're not associated with people like that, but I'm unfortunately related to them (coincidentally, the vocal one's also named Bob). While they're good people in most aspects of life, they have potentially destructive ideas when it comes to running the government - and they're not alone, not by a long shot. It's rooted in the belief that their flavor of religion is right while all others are wrong.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Bob Gray said:
On number two, I think it's a mistake to lump people who think scripture is in some fashion (and there are many difference in understanding of what "inerrant" means) in with people who think the Word of God trumps the law. Those are two very different things and from my perspective do not necessarily go in tandem at all.
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OK, I can accept that correction.

It seems that in Christianity any possible logical permutation of beliefs has not only been held but has become an entire sect. :) One of my favorite periods of church history is the early concilary period, particularly Ephesus and Chalcedon, and the Monophysite - Miaphysite split. <-- please follow that link; it's a cool picture.

In any case, I fully accept that virtually any statement about religious doctrine is at some level too general.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

St. Clown said:
No, Bob, you don't understand. Perhaps you're biased in your branch of Christianity that has some semblance of sanity when it comes to running the government, but when I look at things my very vocal, formerly-fallen-Catholic cousin posts to hi wall about wanting the Bible inserted into the federal government and getting a ****-ton of likes from his friends and other family, I'm seeing exactly what I've stated here. And I see other posts made by other cousins that are less vocal, less vociferous even, but still to the same end goal. Perhaps you're not associated with people like that, but I'm unfortunately related to them (coincidentally, the vocal one's also named Bob). While they're good people in most aspects of life, they have potentially destructive ideas when it comes to running the government - and they're not alone, not by a long shot. It's rooted in the belief that their flavor of religion is right while all others are wrong.
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Of course he doesn't understand, christians of convenience never want to admit that people like this exist and are in positions of power.

https://youtu.be/0l3xX14ZNzk
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

St. Clown said:
No, Bob, you don't understand. Perhaps you're biased in your branch of Christianity that has some semblance of sanity when it comes to running the government, but when I look at things my very vocal, formerly-fallen-Catholic cousin posts to hi wall about wanting the Bible inserted into the federal government and getting a ****-ton of likes from his friends and other family, I'm seeing exactly what I've stated here. And I see other posts made by other cousins that are less vocal, less vociferous even, but still to the same end goal. Perhaps you're not associated with people like that, but I'm unfortunately related to them (coincidentally, the vocal one's also named Bob). While they're good people in most aspects of life, they have potentially destructive ideas when it comes to running the government - and they're not alone, not by a long shot. It's rooted in the belief that their flavor of religion is right while all others are wrong.
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All depends what you mean by inserting the Bible into government. There are obviously many government programs/policies that are have similarities to values espoused in the Bible. You literally couldn't have a government with policies that make any sense and are at all reasonable without having some parallels with things the Bible says, if for no other reason than the Bible says a whole lot of stuff about a whole lot of things. If it's something like saying the President has to pray to Jesus three times a day or the government has to mandate a ten percent tithe or something, I'm in full agreement that such things are absurd and I know of no one who would advocate such things. My point (which I've made on here more times than I can count over the years) is that everyone comes to the table with a variety of views that they have reached a variety of ways and apart from ones that are way out there (which is most cases we can still come to a consensus on, though not always) it's fair for everyone to advocate (in reasonable ways) that their government reflects their views/values. Anything less is an undermining of our form of government and Constitutional rights.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Kepler said:
OK, I can accept that correction.

It seems that in Christianity any possible logical permutation of beliefs has not only been held but has become an entire sect. :) One of my favorite periods of church history is the early concilary period, particularly Ephesus and Chalcedon, and the Monophysite - Miaphysite split. <-- please follow that link; it's a cool picture.

In any case, I fully accept that virtually any statement about religious doctrine is at some level too general.
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Not a bad chart. While such charts by necessity don't reflect a lot of the detail of what's gone on, they are nevertheless very helpful in understanding the flow of history.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Kepler said:
Atheists are probably up to about 20%.
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It's actually reported as about 10%. You can probably get to 20% if you lump in agnostics, secular humanists, and pantheists.
 
Bob Gray said:
...it's fair for everyone to advocate (in reasonable ways) that their government reflects their views/values. Anything less is an undermining of our form of government and Constitutional rights.
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You're obviously correct that government suppression of speech would be a violation of civil rights. So - advocate away. Have a ball on every street corner in the country. Don't, however, expect any sympathy or understanding if/when laws that enforce a particular religious tenet are slapped, pardon the expression, 6 ways from Sunday by the courts. That's not oppression - that's freedom from established religion and equal treatment under the Constitution. Allowing religious laws to stand would undermine the Constitution just as surely as suppressing free speech would. You are entitled to advocate for an outcome, but you are not entitled to the outcome. Advocacy groups of all stripes seem to erroneously equate the two - and often, it appears that they do so intentionally as a tactic to claim victimhood to garner support.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Kepler said:
Atheists are probably up to about 20%.
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FadeToBlack&Gold said:
It's actually reported as about 10%. You can probably get to 20% if you lump in agnostics, secular humanists, and pantheists.
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If those numbers were generated from surveys, you can throw them out. Atheists have nothing to prevent them from lying their pants off.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Strange bedfellows.

Liberals should take the opportunity to go over the Echo Chamber's head and talk directly to Republican voters. "This tax structure would help you. Don't believe me -- believe Trump."
 
St. Clown said:
Okay, then we'll start to interpret the Constitution based upon my version of FSM and the rest of you can suck it. That's what will happen when you start letting God dictate the structure of our laws, because the Catholics don't inherrently agree with the Lutherans, who don't necessarily agree with the Baptists, who don't agree with the... and it goes on and on until people see the light and we end up where we are now.
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The God does not have to be a religious god. One could worship at the altar of unfettered capitalism or hedonism.

When the forces are in balance there is success. When one is stronger than the other there will be problems.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

joecct said:
The God does not have to be a religious god. One could worship at the altar of unfettered capitalism or hedonism.

When the forces are in balance there is success. When one is stronger than the other there will be problems.
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"Moderation in all things, especially moderation."

― Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Bob - I'm a Christian that doesn't believe God needs to be part of the political discussion. Perhaps you need affirmation that murder is wrong, but I don't. :)
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Slap Shot said:
Bob - I'm a Christian that doesn't believe God needs to be part of the political discussion. Perhaps you need affirmation that murder is wrong, but I don't. :)
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Perhaps you aren't understanding at all what I've been saying. Nowhere do I say God should be part of the political discussion, but you are among those who seem to pull such things out of thin air. Try again if you must.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

Im not going to play Bob the Martyr and you've never been known for having the courage to flesh out your convictions.
 
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