Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

How can anybody sit by and use the false equivalency argument for each side when Trump is out blasting the family of a dead serviceman? Anybody who does that has less balls than Trump, and that's saying something. At what point do you conservatives or 3rd party loons finally lose all pretense of honor?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

It's 2 a.m., and the Night Desk of the NY Post has a dilemma.

"If we run this it's gonna be terrible for the candidate we're backing."

"I know, but... well... just look. Just look!"

"It's up to you, Bob, you're the editor."

(tortured pause)

"PRINT THAT SUCKER!!!!"

Note: NSFW, if it's possible for a photo appearing in a tabloid with millions in circulation to be NSFW and, honestly, it is.

There goes any chance of HRC carrying the Clinton household this November.

 

[unofan]

Cruz is a scary dude, but I have to agree. Its pretty wild not giving into Trump in front of Trump's convention.

Don't know if I agree about Bernie though. Coming in behind Hillary isn't a big of a leap for Bernie...than for others to follow in behind Trump (Trump is cozying up to Russia, many GOP despise Russia more than Dems). Also, dems generally have a warm and fuzzy we're all in this together - Bernie is a part of that. Lastly, Hillary's adopting some of Bernie's platforms (probably more than she should).

Jesus, even during the debates Bernie and Hillary stated repeatedly how they agreed on numerous issues. It really wasn't a stretch for Bernie to endorse her, and only the true Bernie Bros are clueless enough to view it as a sellout.

Brent, don't be a Bernie Bro.

 

[burd]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

How can anybody sit by and use the false equivalency argument for each side when Trump is out blasting the family of a dead serviceman? Anybody who does that has less balls than Trump, and that's saying something. At what point do you conservatives or 3rd party loons finally lose all pretense of honor?

Trump's interview with Stephanopoulos should be all anyone needs to convince them that the risks associated with a Clinton presidency are nothing like the risks associated with a Trump presidency. That combination of brash recklessness and ignorance is truly scary. I"m not an alarmist, but I'm beginning to believe that the likelihood of a catastrophic foreign policy decision from a President Trump is not a risk but a certainty.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Jesus, even during the debates Bernie and Hillary stated repeatedly how they agreed on numerous issues. It really wasn't a stretch for Bernie to endorse her, and only the true Bernie Bros are clueless enough to view it as a sellout.

Brent, don't be a Bernie Bro.

Its not mutually exclusive to say Sanders brought in a lot of new people to the political process who's inclusion is more than welcome, but at the same time he also attracted a handful of anarchist loons who would protest their own mothers if they thought it would get them a blurb from the media!

 

[alfablue]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Let's also consider how far Trump was willing to sacrifice. The few times in his life that things got REALLY tough, he bailed. Multiple marriages in his personal life, and multiple bankruptcy's in his business life.

So he did a great job limiting his sacrifice to a bare minimum.

Keeping as far away from a vet laying down his life for his company as possible.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Trump's interview with Stephanopoulos should be all anyone needs to convince them that the risks associated with a Clinton presidency are nothing like the risks associated with a Trump presidency. That combination of brash recklessness and ignorance is truly scary. I"m not an alarmist, but I'm beginning to believe that the likelihood of a catastrophic foreign policy decision from a President Trump is not a risk but a certainty.

I agree with this, but it's easy for me to disagree because I oppose Trump on the vast majority of his stated policies.

What I wonder is whether there are people who agree with Trump's policies, or at least his general bent -- protectionism, isolationism -- but oppose Trump because of his temperament and apparent disregard of our history and democratic values. Those people would be the real heroes: to vote against the guy who would give you the policies you want, but is too dangerous.

NR ran a thought experiment: what if David Duke won the Republican nomination. They listed his policies -- almost all doctrinaire conservative. Then they listed his racial theories. Then they asked: would you vote for him? They were trying to set up a clear contrafactual in which you are faced with someone who will get done what you want done, but who is a moral monster, and then ask "what would you do?"

It's a great question.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Its not mutually exclusive to say Sanders brought in a lot of new people to the political process who's inclusion is more than welcome, but at the same time he also attracted a handful of anarchist loons who would protest their own mothers if they thought it would get them a blurb from the media!

I would change your last statement to "... if they thought it would Bring Down The Machine." It's dismissive to call the anarchists (some of them, actual and self-declared) at Bernie rallies (or in Seattle in 1999) fame whores. They aren't that benign. There are people on the fringe of both the far left and the far right who are so alienated by the system that they think actual chaos would be preferable.

These people are dangerous lunatics.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

I agree with this, but it's easy for me to disagree because I oppose Trump on the vast majority of his stated policies.

What I wonder is whether there are people who agree with Trump's policies, or at least his general bent -- protectionism, isolationism -- but oppose Trump because of his temperament and apparent disregard of our history and democratic values. Those people would be the real heroes: to vote against the guy who would give you the policies you want, but is too dangerous.

NR ran a thought experiment: what if David Duke won the Republican nomination. They listed his policies -- almost all doctrinaire conservative. Then they listed his racial theories. Then they asked: would you vote for him? They were trying to set up a clear contrafactual in which you are faced with someone who will get done what you want done, but who is a moral monster, and then ask "what would you do?"

It's a great question.

Kep that's an easy question to answer. David Duke would be the GOP nominee and win 45% of the general election vote. Only, and I mean only difference between a Trump election and a Duke one is that the media and 3rd partiers would not be able to do the "there's no difference between the two parties" schtick out of fear of being locked up in the loony bin if they did. So, he'd lose by 10 points instead of the 6-7% Trump will end up losing by.

We differ on something important. I feel you think there's lots of good Republicans who would rise up and stand against a guy like Duke. I don't. In fact, I expect the next GOP nominee to adopt all of Trump's proposals, but tone done the anti-Gold Star family rhetoric. Or the Putin love. When he loses those statements are going to be blamed for his defeat, not the anti-immigrant, Christian litmus test, pro torture stances that he's running on.

The only break between David Duke and the GOP mainstream is the anti-Semitism. Lose (or downplay) that and he's a perfect fit. They better hope like hell he doesn't finish in that Senate runoff in Louisiana this year.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

We differ on something important. I feel you think there's lots of good Republicans who would rise up and stand against a guy like Duke. I don't. In fact, I expect the next GOP nominee to adopt all of Trump's proposals, but tone done the anti-Gold Star family rhetoric. Or the Putin love. When he loses those statements are going to be blamed for his defeat, not the anti-immigrant, Christian litmus test, pro torture stances that he's running on.

The only break between David Duke and the GOP mainstream is the anti-Semitism. Lose (or downplay) that and he's a perfect fit. They better hope like hell he doesn't finish in that Senate runoff in Louisiana this year.

This is a central difference between us, yes. By working with people who are not just overwhelmingly conservative but very far right conservative, by living out in the country surrounded by these people, by traveling along with about a thousand of these people on a long trip to Central America this year, and my being married to a woman whose extended family includes many of these people, I have far more understanding of and sympathy with them than I used to.

There are a lot of good conservatives out there, and most of them are registered Republicans. There are also a lot of really awful bigoted f-cktards out there, and most of them are registered Republicans. The former loathe the latter almost as much as we do. The latter would vote for Trump/Duke not just because of the R after his name but because they are all about the same ignorant racism. The former would have to make a choice -- vote the letter, vote against the beast to try to exorcise it, or stay home repulsed by the whole thing. You think they would overwhelmingly vote the letter. I don't. I think many of these people define themselves by a code -- not ours, true, but an internally coherent moral law -- and I believe they would balk at violating that code for a political gain.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

This is a central difference between us, yes. By working with people who are not just overwhelmingly conservative but very far right conservative, by living out in the country surrounded by these people, by traveling along with about a thousand of these people on a long trip to Central America this year, and my being married to a woman whose extended family includes many of these people, I have far more understanding of and sympathy with them than I used to.

There are a lot of good conservatives out there, and most of them are registered Republicans. There are also a lot of really awful bigoted f-cktards out there, and most of them are registered Republicans. The former loathe the latter almost as much as we do. The latter would vote for Trump/Duke not just because of the R after his name but because they are all about the same ignorant racism. The former would have to make a choice -- vote the letter, vote against the beast to try to exorcise it, or stay home repulsed by the whole thing. You think they would overwhelmingly vote the letter. I don't. I think many of these people define themselves by a code -- not ours, true, but an internally coherent moral law -- and I believe they would balk at violating that code for a political gain.

An on point article on this very subject:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/08/the-gop-has-made-its-peace-with-trumps-racism.html

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

An on point article on this very subject:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/08/the-gop-has-made-its-peace-with-trumps-racism.html

Good piece, thank you.

This is great writing and gets directly to the point of what Trump is:

Khizr Khan’s speech before the Democratic National Convention was emotional because it zeroed in on the racist nature of Trumpism. Trump does not merely call for more restrictive immigration policies or a more stern response to terrorism. He blames the entire community for any crime committed by one of its members, separating all of their members from America and the privileges of citizenship on the basis of their heritage. Khan demanded that Trump reconcile his sweeping characterization of all Muslim Americans with the heartbreaking facts of his dead son’s heroic life and the Constitution itself. (It is Trump’s misfortune, or perhaps ineptitude, that the personalized targets of his feuds happen to be the strongest possible refutation of his prejudice: Curiel had to live in hiding from death threats from Mexican drug cartels; Khan is not only a gold-star father but has publicly called upon his fellow American Muslims to turn in radicals.) In response, Trump baselessly insinuated that Khan did not allow his wife to speak, from which it might follow that he adheres to some extreme variant of Islam, and probably was some sort of secret radical. This smear provided yet more confirmation for Khan’s point that Trump refused to judge suspect minorities as individuals, that nothing they say or do can dispel the suspicion attached to them in Trump’s feverish mind.

Likewise, what the GOP is:

The Republican Party fashions itself as the party of Lincoln, and when its national leaders have used race as a wedge, they have buried it beneath the language of race neutrality. The official party history holds that Barry Goldwater’s rejection of the 1964 Civil Rights Act was merely an overzealous interpretation of constitutional principle, and the mass influx of white Southerners that followed an unrelated coincidence. Those who don’t closely follow conservative rhetoric may not appreciate how deeply the right has invested itself in these fantasies of racial innocence.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Time will tell, but if Trump basically matches Romney's performance (47% of the vote, 190+ electoral votes) then it proves my point which is most of GOP voters have no problem with racism, even if they don't practice it themselves and prioritize the (R) next to a candidate's name over basic sanity.

If Trump starts dropping traditional GOP states (AZ, UT, GA, MO - I'm picking states where various polls have shown a closer than expected margin) then I'll be happy to admit there's more decent righties out there then I expected.

Insulting a Gold Star Family should disqualify you from office. If it doesn't, you have to look into the hearts and minds of the people STILL supporting him.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

I think there are tons of moderate R voters, but these voters have no national party standing for their interests. The GOP has learned from bitter experience that moderate Members lose because radicals won't support them, while insane Members still win because moderates still support them against Democrats.

More importantly, they also don't turn out in sufficient numbers in the primary elections to support moderate candidates there. If they truly exist in any numbers, typical primary turnout ought to be low enough that a groundswell of moderate voters could swing the primaries.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

More importantly, they also don't turn out in sufficient numbers in the primary elections to support moderate candidates there. If they truly exist in any numbers, typical primary turnout ought to be low enough that a groundswell of moderate voters could swing the primaries.

In order to win their respective primaries, both Clinton and Trump combined to receive only 9% of the total vote when compared to the average turnout rate of the general election. That's why crazy candidates stand a chance at winning the primaries.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Time will tell, but if Trump basically matches Romney's performance (47% of the vote, 190+ electoral votes) then it proves my point which is most of GOP voters have no problem with racism, even if they don't practice it themselves and prioritize the (R) next to a candidate's name over basic sanity.

If Trump starts dropping traditional GOP states (AZ, UT, GA, MO - I'm picking states where various polls have shown a closer than expected margin) then I'll be happy to admit there's more decent righties out there then I expected.

Insulting a Gold Star Family should disqualify you from office. If it doesn't, you have to look into the hearts and minds of the people STILL supporting him.

This completely depends upon voter turnout. I could see the left not showing up because they think Shrillary has it in the bag. Meanwhile, I could see a substantial number of usually Republican voters staying home or leaving off their presidential vote while casting the rest of their ballots because, hey, it's Donald friggin' Trump. That's the only way this election stays close, but it'll still end with a Clinton win.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

More importantly, they also don't turn out in sufficient numbers in the primary elections to support moderate candidates there. If they truly exist in any numbers, typical primary turnout ought to be low enough that a groundswell of moderate voters could swing the primaries.

a.k.a. the school board problem. Nobody but insane extremists votes in local elections so you wind up with school boards dominated by Creationists.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

This completely depends upon voter turnout. I could see the left not showing up because they think Shrillary has it in the bag.

At some point GOP surrogates like Rasmussen and Fox will start biasing their samples in favor of Democrats to try to astroturf this impression.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

Re: Campaign 2016 Part XV: Before & After: Dancing in the Streets of Philadelphia!

This completely depends upon voter turnout. I could see the left not showing up because they think Shrillary has it in the bag. Meanwhile, I could see a substantial number of usually Republican voters staying home or leaving off their presidential vote while casting the rest of their ballots because, hey, it's Donald friggin' Trump. That's the only way this election stays close, but it'll still end with a Clinton win.

It's been stated in here before that the left won't stay home because of the Supreme Court and the right won't stay home for the same reason. I have a hard time believing this won't be a huge voter turnout election the way the Republicans have set things up.

 

[Scarlet]

Time will tell, but if Trump basically matches Romney's performance (47% of the vote, 190+ electoral votes) then it proves my point which is most of GOP voters have no problem with racism, even if they don't practice it themselves and prioritize the (R) next to a candidate's name over basic sanity.

If Trump starts dropping traditional GOP states (AZ, UT, GA, MO - I'm picking states where various polls have shown a closer than expected margin) then I'll be happy to admit there's more decent righties out there then I expected.

Insulting a Gold Star Family should disqualify you from office. If it doesn't, you have to look into the hearts and minds of the people STILL supporting him.

I feel his lemmings.....I mean supporters don't feel he insulted him. He was just responding to being called out!! You know, like what Trump does ALL THE TIME. It amazes me how they feel he does nothing wrong.