What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

5mn_Major said:
War is a tough business...regardless of which war your fighting (e.g., ideas). Fighting is in the DNA of some and some even seek it out. But in the end, nearly everyone involved is a casualty.
Click to expand...

I'd say Stewart loves the fight. Some of us do -- when you hear a falsehood or bad reasoning, for some the first instinct is to jump in and correct it. This does not make us fun at parties.

It's no surprise though that after 15 years he has PTSD.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Kepler said:
I'd say Stewart loves the fight. Some of us do -- when you hear a falsehood or bad reasoning, for some the first instinct is to jump in and correct it. This does not make us fun at parties.

It's no surprise though that after 15 years he has PTSD.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between sharing/discussing/even debating ideas and 'fighting'. The former is human nature. The latter is not natural for many...but some get drawn into it anyways.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

5mn_Major said:
There's a difference between sharing/discussing/even debating ideas and 'fighting'. The former is human nature. The latter is not natural for many...but some get drawn into it anyways.
Click to expand...

I think I completely misunderstood your post, then. I thought I was in agreement with it. :)

Do you mean the "meat grinder" part of political arguing? I think that actually stems from the stakes. If you believe people are being harmed -- for my wife, immigrants; for me, the poor; for Bob, the unborn; for Flag, only God knows -- then the debates aren't just intellectual abstractions anymore, they become earnest and emotional involvement is unavoidable. I actually think the raw "fighting" over ideas is much more human nature, while debating on the merits is a skill that everyone has to acquire from education and modeling.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

A little help for the DSCC: Russ Feingold will run against Ron Johnson in 2016. The good guys need +4 in the Senate (plus the White House) so that Hillary can put Julius and Ethel Rosenberg on the Court (mwa ha ha...). I'm not sure how that's looking -- perhaps somebody (Rover?) can give us a primer on the 2016 seats that are at risk?

Would also appreciate some WI knowledge of how Feingold lost last time. Midterm electorate, or more than that? 10 points is a lot.

Also: lower in that article, Alan Grayson could be looking to bring LBJ's vocabulary back to the Senate.
 
Last edited:
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Kepler said:
I think I completely misunderstood your post, then. I thought I was in agreement with it. :)

Do you mean the "meat grinder" part of political arguing? I think that actually stems from the stakes. If you believe people are being harmed -- for my wife, immigrants; for me, the poor; for Bob, the unborn; for Flag, only God knows -- then the debates aren't just intellectual abstractions anymore, they become earnest and emotional involvement is unavoidable. I actually think the raw "fighting" over ideas is much more human nature, while debating on the merits is a skill that everyone has to acquire from education and modeling.
Click to expand...

Fighting is a bit more of an "if at first you don't succeed" reaction, since as much as debate is a part of human nature, winning has become just as much of it, and people will do whatever it takes to achieve it. Reminds me of one of those things from the Simpsons where Homer slaps people with a glove just to get what he wants. It's only a matter of time, though, before someone faster on the draw accepts the challenge.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

I'm not sure what winning looks like, though, since it is astonishingly rare for anyone to actually change their mind based on a debate. I think most political debates consist of both sides defending themselves, and inferring an attack based on the other's disagreement. :)
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Kepler said:
I think I completely misunderstood your post, then. I thought I was in agreement with it. :)

Do you mean the "meat grinder" part of political arguing? I think that actually stems from the stakes. If you believe people are being harmed -- for my wife, immigrants; for me, the poor; for Bob, the unborn; for Flag, only God knows -- then the debates aren't just intellectual abstractions anymore, they become earnest and emotional involvement is unavoidable. I actually think the raw "fighting" over ideas is much more human nature, while debating on the merits is a skill that everyone has to acquire from education and modeling.
Click to expand...

I think the point is in there. There is a line between sharing/discussing/even debating ideas...and as you put it earnest/emotional/anger driven involvement. One could make the argument that a negative emotional response (i.e., fighting) to an idea is natural and just discussing ideas is not. While it has merits as being inherent in humans, I think 'fighting' emotion is an outmoded leftover from caveman days (as I would consider a desire to hunt). Physical fight or flight responses require adrenaline...and that was stoked by instigating negative emotions.

An example of my belief that 'fighting' emotions are of little use today...in the biz world...sharing, discussing, debating ideas is critical to any aspiring successful business. On the other hand, negative emotions or fight responses are actively discouraged...and if you have a natural tendency for this emotion, you're likely to be with out a job soon enough. One of my fav analogies is in Star Wars...which uses a cleverly veiled use of the force, both light and dark, to show the power and damage of positive/negative energies in accomplishing goals.

To that end, I would bet Stewart is depressed and drained not due to an intellectual discussion of ideas...but rather due to the fact that too many times he slipped into emotional 'fight' mode whether he showed it or not.
 
Last edited:
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

5mn_Major said:
I think the point is in there. There is a line between sharing/discussing/even debating ideas...and as you put it earnest/emotional/anger driven involvement. One could make the argument that a negative emotional response (i.e., fighting) to an idea is natural and just discussing ideas is not. While it has merits as being inherent in humans, I think 'fighting' emotion is an outmoded leftover from caveman days (as I would consider a desire to hunt). Physical fight or flight responses require adrenaline...and that was stoked by instigating negative emotions.
Click to expand...

Up until now, we've been able to upgrade our software but we're still running on ancient hardware. Once we start to be able to modify the hardware, after we address a few of the most obvious problems, we can change the firmware of hormones, blood, etc. Maybe put a switch on our rage so we can throw it when we need it but keep it off in inappropriate circumstances (important, but I vote for the pain cutout switch first -- yes, body, I know there's a problem, but a little blinking idiot light would tell me just as well).

Or we can just upload our consciousness into a quantum computer and say screw it, I'm immortal (and am conscious microsecond to microsecond), can move at the speed of light, and can take on any physical form that you can create with servos and motors.
 
Last edited:
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Kepler said:
Even the Dixiecrats belong somewhere on the rainbow of American homegrown politics, but the Neocons are something alien, who slipped through a door from another European dimension of radicalized political reaction.

It's not fair to call them Nazis, I'll admit, but they're from that same family which also gives the world the BNP, Golden Dawn, Jobbik, etc. and believes in an iron fist in an iron glove. They scare the bejesus out of me.
Click to expand...

I laughed at this. Sorry, Kep.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Kepler said:
Would also appreciate some WI knowledge of how Feingold lost last time. Midterm electorate, or more than that? 10 points is a lot.
Click to expand...

I honestly really liked Feingold and was really disappointed when he lost. Simplistically, I think Johnson won for the same reasons Walker won. Some of these reasons are difficult to reason out given we voted for Obama twice but I think the midterm had a lot to do with it.

I actually had a bit of hope for Johnson (I have met him and members of his family through friends) but as far as I have followed his voting record, he has been the same status quo we expect out of a partisan politician.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

To: Kep
From: Rover
Re: 2016 Senate

TOP SECRET: FOR YOUR EYES ONLY

Kep,

While not a WI resident, my impression of Feingold and no offense to his supporters is that he doesn't like raising money, and when the other guy either has money or does like raising money you can find yourself outgunned real quick. I think that may have happened to him in 2010. Happy to see him back in 2016. While of course polls are not predictive of final results this early, he is looking good in his comeback initially (not everyone is politically viable after a defeat). I read Wisconsin hasn't elected a Republican Senator in a Presidential election year since 1980, which doesn't bode well for hard-righty Ron Johson.

For other seats, Kirk in IL and Ayotte in NH are in serious trouble. Kinda like those Southern Dems were in 2014. Ayotte really needs a weak challenger. If either the current or former governor steps up (Hassan or Lynch) she needs to start sending resumes to neo-con foreign policy think tanks with an expected start date of Jan 2017.

The other two seats in play are Florida where Rubio ditched, and Pennsylvania. PA worried me. Toomey unlike all other GOP incumbents in disputed seats has made moves to be more bipartisan. He most likely is facing Sestak in a rematch of 2010 race but Dem party isn't too thrilled with him. Problem is half of Dem statewide office holders are indicted or in trouble (AG, Treasurer). TBD on this one.

Florida will depend on Presidential race winner. If you're running unknowns vs unknowns, I'd expect top of the ticket to carry the day.

Lastly, Ohio is interesting in the Portman-Strickland race. I read a good analysis of this race which is Portman could survive if his party lost the state for Prez by a couple of % points. Get closer to 4 or 5% and he's unlikely to win. A good get out of DSCC (is Schumer still running that?).

Dems only have 10 seats running. Only NV needs to be watched with Reid's merciful retirement. Dems have strong horse in former AG, but need incumbent Gov (Sandoval) to skip race. If he makes it he wins regardless of how top of ticket does.

Beyond that, look out for retirements. There's always an unexpected one. I heard Grassley interviewed the other day and unless he's fighting a cold he sounds half dead already. Also lets see if McCain ends up answering the bell again although GOP bench should keep that one red regardless.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Rover said:
To: Kep
From: Rover
Re: 2016 Senate

TOP SECRET: FOR YOUR EYES ONLY

Kep,

While not a WI resident, my impression of Feingold and no offense to his supporters is that he doesn't like raising money, and when the other guy either has money or does like raising money you can find yourself outgunned real quick. I think that may have happened to him in 2010. Happy to see him back in 2016. While of course polls are not predictive of final results this early, he is looking good in his comeback initially (not everyone is politically viable after a defeat). I read Wisconsin hasn't elected a Republican Senator in a Presidential election year since 1980, which doesn't bode well for hard-righty Ron Johson.
Click to expand...

Seems to me politicians are largely of two groups: dogmatic idealists who are principled in their approach to money and dogmatic idealists who are not so principled in their approach to money. The politicians who are actually focused on doing what's best for people rather than being devoted to a strict ideology are rare. Due to has sporatic policy choices, Obama may be one of those truly trying to put the people's welfare first...but if so, its likely his execution has been frequently off.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

5mn_Major said:
Seems to me politicians are largely of two groups: dogmatic idealists who are principled in their approach to money and dogmatic idealists who are not so principled in their approach to money. The politicians who are actually focused on doing what's best for people rather than being devoted to a strict ideology are rare. Due to has sporatic policy choices, Obama may be one of those truly trying to put the people's welfare first...but if so, its likely his execution has been frequently off.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you get no credit from the public for taking an anti-money stance. Or at least its not a high priority for voters unless you did something illegal (Nixon) or your donor ends up being a convict (Madoff, etc). Even for a bad donor I don't recall too many cases of pols being held to account for that.

So Feingold may prefer to collect cans to finance his campaign, but until the SCOTUS changes I hope he tries to be competitive within existing laws of course.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Rubio just changed the Iraq answer.

Now the answer is that Iraq was the right thing to do with the information they had at the time. In hindsight he wouldn't have done it. But given the same information Bush had he would have done it. Considering Bush and Cheney fudged the evidence and everyone knows that he's an idiot.

Walker keeps looking like the logical alternative for the GOP. He may be the most dangerous man in the field but just sneaky enough to get the nomination.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Walker just said the same thing in face the nation. Scooby, you need to put the crack pipe down.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Also, they think they're smarter than each other. They see one candidate get savaged for his response, even if it's honest, and they adjust accordingly. None of them have the spine to say what they really think. They need to watch the polls first.

It's why I'd make a terrible politician. I have no filter and don't care what people think. I'll say what I think and I'll stand behind it. Unless someone shows me a better path of course. But then I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. (it just doesn't happen very often.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top