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Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

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LynahFan said:
You keep relying on "statistics" which I've already explained don't prove (to me) what you think they prove to you.

It's a bit more like saying "here's a cure for Ebola, but it will give 0.0001% of you the sniffles and I'm okay with that."
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In the Wisconsin case, the state's own numbers showed up to 10% of the electorate would not be able to vote in this election if the new law was enforced. That's coming from the Walker administration, so perhaps you will believe them.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

unofan said:
In the Wisconsin case, the state's own numbers showed up to 10% of the electorate would not be able to vote in this election if the new law was enforced. That's coming from the Walker administration, so perhaps you will believe them.
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Right, because since I'm in favor of any Voter ID law, I clearly must be in favor of ALL of them? And if any particular implementation of Voter ID disenfranchised lots of people, they all must do so? Go directly back to law school to re-take formal logic -do not pass Go and do not collect $200. :)
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

LynahFan said:
So, according to that line of thinking, you should be happy that the Republicans are pushing voter ID. Are you? Maybe for some of us, this really is about the integrity of the process - forget the outcome; let those chips fall where they may. If that means that more (legitimately registered) Democrats show up to vote, then so be it.
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I think all of the shenanigans are stupid and a waste of tavpayer dollars and court time. A better way of putting it is that I don't worry about voter ID legislation. People are going to find a way to vote. Also, the courts will only allow you to go so far with some of these laws. Were these laws effective, shouldn't we be talking about President Romney right now, after he won Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and everywhere else new voter restrictions went into effect?
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

LynahFan said:
Right, because since I'm in favor of any Voter ID law, I clearly must be in favor of ALL of them? And if any particular implementation of Voter ID disenfranchised lots of people, they all must do so? Go directly back to law school to re-take formal logic -do not pass Go and do not collect $200. :)
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What do you recommend as an example of a fair voter ID law?

I totally get the visceral reaction of "you oppose voter ID -- you must be advocating fraud." But I also get that the practical consequence (not to mention: the aim) of many of these laws introduced by the GOP is a hamfisted attempt to suppress the votes of people they don't want to count.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

Rover said:
I think all of the shenanigans are stupid and a waste of tavpayer dollars and court time. A better way of putting it is that I don't worry about voter ID legislation. People are going to find a way to vote. Also, the courts will only allow you to go so far with some of these laws. Were these laws effective, shouldn't we be talking about President Romney right now, after he won Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and everywhere else new voter restrictions went into effect?
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Bad reasoning. The idea of voter misinformation and suppression is to influence around the margins, and if 2000 taught us anything it's that the margins matter.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

Kepler said:
Bad reasoning. The idea of voter misinformation and suppression is to influence around the margins, and if 2000 taught us anything it's that the margins matter.
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2000 wasn't lost because of voter supression though. It was lost because of idiot Gore campaign, up to and including not asking for a statewide recount which tends to benefit Dems as their voters are most likely to be undercounted.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

Rover said:
2000 wasn't lost because of voter supression though. It was lost because of idiot Gore campaign, up to and including not asking for a statewide recount which tends to benefit Dems as their voters are most likely to be undercounted.
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This is like saying Bill Buckner didn't lose the 6th game, Bob Stanley did. It's false precision -- there were several important factors.

I have no doubt voter suppression won't last long -- just a cycle or two until there are so many stories about elderly WHITE people who get their rights stolen that the press and the average voter start caring. But as we saw, again, in 2000, one election can do decades worth of damage to the country. This incarnation of the GOP is more vain and inept than the last, which was homicidal and inept, but eventually they'll come up with A Plan, and then they'll be formidable again. The best thing we can do is ensure they keep losing until they exorcise the crazier elements because if not those elements will wield power again someday.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

Kepler said:
This is like saying Bill Buckner didn't lose the 6th game, Bob Stanley did. It's false precision -- there were several important factors.

I have no doubt voter suppression won't last long -- just a cycle or two until there are so many stories about elderly WHITE people who get their rights stolen that the press and the average voter start caring. But as we saw, again, in 2000, one election can do decades worth of damage to the country. This incarnation of the GOP is more vain and inept than the last, which was homicidal and inept, but eventually they'll come up with A Plan, and then they'll be formidable again. The best thing we can do is ensure they keep losing until they exorcise the crazier elements because if not those elements will wield power again someday.
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But again Kep, voter suppression didn't lose Gore either Florida or the national election. I can't think of any races off the top of my head where it did influence an outcome. Its a waste of time.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

Kepler said:
This is like saying Bill Buckner didn't lose the 6th game, Bob Stanley did. It's false precision -- there were several important factors.

I have no doubt voter suppression won't last long -- just a cycle or two until there are so many stories about elderly WHITE people who get their rights stolen that the press and the average voter start caring. But as we saw, again, in 2000, one election can do decades worth of damage to the country. This incarnation of the GOP is more vain and inept than the last, which was homicidal and inept, but eventually they'll come up with A Plan, and then they'll be formidable again. The best thing we can do is ensure they keep losing until they exorcise the crazier elements because if not those elements will wield power again someday.
Click to expand...

play 'what if' with me...

if algore was pres how would that have played out?
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

Kepler said:
What do you recommend as an example of a fair voter ID law?
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I realize that this is 100% a cop out, but I suspect it varies by state, depending on what ID processes the state has in place, etc. Whatever the case may be, the list of valid IDs should be as broad as possible to try to encompass as much of the electorate as possible to minimize the additional burden on voters to the greatest extent possible.
I totally get the visceral reaction of "you oppose voter ID -- you must be advocating fraud."
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I don't think people who oppose voter ID actually WANT fraud, but I do think they're too cavalier about it.
But I also get that the practical consequence (not to mention: the aim) of many of these laws introduced by the GOP is a hamfisted attempt to suppress the votes of people they don't want to count.
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Completely agree. Those laws, and those people, suck.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

Kepler said:
Bad reasoning. The idea of voter misinformation and suppression is to influence around the margins, and if 2000 taught us anything it's that the margins matter.
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Exactly, and this is the reasoning that causes me to SUPPORT voter ID. If there's an election that should come out to 5000 for A and 4990 for B, which is the bigger travesty: for B to slip in 20 fraudulent votes or for B to suppress 20 of A's votes?

To me, those would be the exact same level of malfeasance, and both should be guarded against. Voter ID solves the first, and as long as the voting requirements are clear, published far in advance, and free for people who need the assistance, then that (in my mind) takes care of the second.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

LynahFan said:
Exactly, and this is the reasoning that causes me to SUPPORT voter ID. If there's an election that should come out to 5000 for A and 4990 for B, which is the bigger travesty: for B to slip in 20 fraudulent votes or for B to suppress 20 of A's votes?
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I would argue that we're talking about 2 fraudulent votes vs 20,000 suppressed votes, however...

To me, those would be the exact same level of malfeasance, and both should be guarded against. Voter ID solves the first, and as long as the voting requirements are clear, published far in advance, and free for people who need the assistance, then that (in my mind) takes care of the second.
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... if a method can be designed so that every eligible voter automatically and free of charge has voter ID delivered to them, whether by internet, snail mail, courier pigeon, sled dog or diving bell, then sure we can talk. The burden should be on the state to deny a person's vote, not on a person to prove they have the right.
 
Kepler said:
I would argue that we're talking about 2 fraudulent votes vs 20,000 suppressed votes, however...



... if a method can be designed so that every eligible voter automatically and free of charge has voter ID delivered to them, whether by internet, snail mail, courier pigeon, sled dog or diving bell, then sure we can talk. The burden should be on the state to deny a person's vote, not on a person to prove they have the right.
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If it's really as few as 20,000, I am perfectly happy with the state raising taxes enough to cover the cost. Sign me up.
 
Re: Campaign 2014: The Epic Struggle To Win The Senate And Change Nothing

goldy_331 said:
But, but, it's the Republicans' fault! Rachel Maddow said so!
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1. I never said it was the Republican Parties fault. I blamed Ted Cruz. Two different things.
2. Rachel Maddow doesn't write those articles.

There is bipartisan blame to go around. I think the majority of the blame goes to a system where no one can get appointed to anything because no one can get support from both sides anymore. In fact I can't think of a single person in government who is bipartisan.

The President should be able to get his appointments through. Bush did. Supreme Court cause it's for life is a little different.
 
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