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Business, Economics, and Taxes: Eat Cereal for Dinner

MichVandal said:
Just saw an interesting reminder- right now, we are operating on trade deals that dumpy made. The updated NAFTA is a dumpy deal. And how many jobs did that bring back to the US? That's what it was supposed to do, right? And it didn't really work out.

It's starting to make me thing that what the right wing really wants is to put the poor in such a bad shape that they will work for slave money. For some reason, they are shocked that even immigrants that come in legally to work don't want to deal with that. Nebraska is claiming they will be bankrupt by the end of the year because of the workers just went home or they were force out. Which is EXACTLY what they voted for.

And the really stupid part is that they clearly don't understand that our economy requires consumers. The more consumption, the more money is made. And on a relative income basis, billionaires spend a small fraction of what people making less than $30,000 spend. I've gone through the math, and it's hard to consume $1,000,000,000 of stuff in a year- where it's totally gone after 365 days. It's pretty easy to do with $30,000.

If we *really* want manufacturing jobs to come back, then they need to be skilled jobs, not mindless line workers. Those jobs are gone thanks to billionaires thinking they are not making enough money. They don't want to pay actual hard work that *seems* easy- especially people who harvest their food.

I'm really looking forward to visiting Finland later this year to see a country where there's a good progressive tax to make sure the lower end can still consume stuff knowing the rich can't. A country that really focuses on homelessness. A country that really focuses on poor people. Just accept the handful of lazy people to capture the hard workers who just can't get things together. A country where education is so, so, so very good. I doubt we will see all of what works, but it will be interesting to learn what we can.
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Worth noting Costco’s current CEO was a forklift jockey when he started there
 
FadeToBlack&Gold said:
I'm fully cognizant of my privilege, thanks. I was mainly recounting history, and re-reading I can see where I've implied that all blue collar jobs aren't fulfilling or are for stupid people. I should've clarified that they aren't fulfilling for me (nor apparently for 75% of the rest of the country either). And I will disagree that all jobs are repetitive and boring, but that's a separate argument.

I don't think anyone here is saying that you don't deserve to earn a living for working with your hands, and no one is saying that blue collar jobs should be automated out of existence. If you like doing that stuff, great - you're in the minority and you deserve to earn a proper living doing it. The UAW used to do that for their workers, but thanks to decades of attacks on labor, they've lost the power to bargain and these days they barely provide the scraps they can.
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Co-sign
 
Handyman said:
Like I said...I am choosing to make less money at my current job because they treat me way better.

I have also done plenty of Blue Collar work...I am not an engineer I am a HS teacher. I also have spent the majority of my life near the poverty line.
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Apparently my edit didn’t go through but, that post wasn’t really directed at you.
 
Jimjamesak said:
To be fair, I’m not just arguing about money = happiness. It’s about being valued = happiness, and money is part of being valued.

Another very important aspect of being valued is being treated with dignity. Now I'm not going to expect that from corporations anytime soon, dignity does increase shareholder value, but a little bit of dignity from society would be nice.

That's the biggest thing around here in this discussion, there is a lot of condescension. "Oh it might make you happy." All of you saying "well I don't think you're stupid and you do deserve a living wage" feels so forced and insincere. There's a reason why 75% don't want to work those jobs, because we, as a society, have spent the last 50+ years devaluing and demeaning blue collar work. And if there is any "glorification" of blue collar work it's done by rich right wing assholes having a cosplay adventure (looking at you Mike Rowe).

I get it, I'm surrounded by a bunch of mostly elite educated mostly engineers around here. I don't really expect any of you to understand the joys of blue collar work, but y'all could be a little respectful.
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We have a society may have been marginalizing labor jobs, but it's only because businesses have been bashing them forever. Unions have been fought at every single corner, and the "evils" of unions have been part of the right wing ever since unions have been around. So badly that people who work in labor jobs are convinced that they can negotiate a better deal for themselves, because they are told that they can (even when it's totally false). All of that propaganda has come from people who want to pay less for the labor it takes to make the thing they sell.

Remember, the "honor of work" dates back for a long time. It's how Tom Sawyer convinced Huck Finn to paint the fence for him. It's a crap argument.

Just like the current generation is bashed on for not being loyal to the companies they work for, but don't bash companies for not being loyal to the workers. This is kind of insane.
 
MichVandal said:
Just like the current generation is bashed on for not being loyal to the companies they work for, but don't bash companies for not being loyal to the workers. This is kind of insane.
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I'm going to (probably) unfairly single out this sentence, but I strenuously disagree with this.

In my anecdotal experience, I haven't heard anyone, young or old, suggest people be more loyal to their company. Not one. This is probably spread across at least a 200-300+ people within my personal and professional circles over almost two decades post-graduation.

If anything, I think I've heard more lobbying to be LESS loyal to companies. Even amongst coworkers and managers. They all say the same thing, you need to do what's best for you first.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
I'm going to (probably) unfairly single out this sentence, but I strenuously disagree with this.

In my anecdotal experience, I haven't heard anyone, young or old, suggest people be more loyal to their company. Not one. This is probably spread across at least a 200-300+ people within my personal and professional circles over almost two decades post-graduation.

If anything, I think I've heard more lobbying to be LESS loyal to companies. Even amongst coworkers and managers. They all say the same thing, you need to do what's best for you first.
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You are not old enough, apparently. I've heard it a lot. It's part of the complaint about the newest generation of workers, along with the complaint that they are lazy and don't want to work.
 
Loyalty should be rewarded. No one was more loyal than I was, and I was not rewarded for it. You do you. Companies don't care, and Rich owners or CEO's don't either.
 
MichVandal said:
We have a society may have been marginalizing labor jobs, but it's only because businesses have been bashing them forever. Unions have been fought at every single corner, and the "evils" of unions have been part of the right wing ever since unions have been around. So badly that people who work in labor jobs are convinced that they can negotiate a better deal for themselves, because they are told that they can (even when it's totally false). All of that propaganda has come from people who want to pay less for the labor it takes to make the thing they sell.

Remember, the "honor of work" dates back for a long time. It's how Tom Sawyer convinced Huck Finn to paint the fence for him. It's a crap argument.

Just like the current generation is bashed on for not being loyal to the companies they work for, but don't bash companies for not being loyal to the workers. This is kind of insane.
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It’s a bit more insidious than that. This is America so it all comes with a healthy dose of racism.

Our society doesn’t marginalize and bash all blue collar labor, just urban blue collar labor. If you live in a “rural” area and work blue collar you’re a real American. If you live in the city and work blue collar you’re a leech on society. Why’s that? Because most urban blue collar workers are people of color. Same reason why Ford and others started moving their factories out of major cities like Detroit and Chicago to suburban areas, because unions promoted racial equality. It’s also why government jobs, especially ones at the local and state level, were demonized more, because they started being filled by more people of color.
 
Jimjamesak said:
It’s a bit more insidious than that. This is America so it all comes with a healthy dose of racism.

Our society doesn’t marginalize and bash all blue collar labor, just urban blue collar labor. If you live in a “rural” area and work blue collar you’re a real American. If you live in the city and work blue collar you’re a leech on society. Why’s that? Because most urban blue collar workers are people of color. Same reason why Ford and others started moving their factories out of major cities like Detroit and Chicago to suburban areas, because unions promoted racial equality. It’s also why government jobs, especially ones at the local and state level, were demonized more, because they started being filled by more people of color.
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Which is why family farmers are worshiped, but their immigrant workforce is being deported. So not all rural labor is appreciated.
 
MichVandal said:
You are not old enough, apparently. I've heard it a lot. It's part of the complaint about the newest generation of workers, along with the complaint that they are lazy and don't want to work.
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I'm really old and I have never once heard anyone under a $50M net worth suggest a worker owes his employer anything but a kick in the ass the second his back is turned.

Middle class or poor, every person I have ever met hates owners. I'm sure there was a feeling of loyalty back when companies took care of their workers (because they understood it was better for business), but not since the Harvard MBAs got a hold of Main Street in the 80s. Now it's sharpen the knife and wait.
 
MichVandal said:
Which is why family farmers are worshiped, but their immigrant workforce is being deported. So not all rural labor is appreciated.
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It isn’t a coincidence that the south has historically had the lowest rates of union membership. It’s also not a coincidence that as union membership in Midwest has declined, open racism and support for conservative candidates has increased.

Same reason why the trades are being promoted more these days, they’re mostly white and rural or suburban.
 
Kepler said:
I'm really old and I have never once heard anyone under a $50M net worth suggest a worker owes his employer anything but a kick in the ass the second his back is turned.

Middle class or poor, every person I have ever met hates owners. I'm sure there was a feeling of loyalty back when companies took care of their workers (because they understood it was better for business), but not since the Harvard MBAs got a hold of Main Street in the 80s. Now it's sharpen the knife and wait.
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Oh I’ve been lectured by a boomer/GenXer a time or two for “not having loyalty to the company” when I express that I really don’t care about the company.
 
I mean, what does "loyalty to the company" even mean? I very much like my current employer, they allow me a lot of freedom in how I work and compensate me very well. For that, I will work hard for them commensurate with what they are giving me, and I will root for the company to do well so that my current position continues to exist and I get to continue to work in the same manner at the same/increasing amount. I enjoy my coworkers insofar as they are able to contribute in ways that help me and so I will also contribute in ways that help them so that we can all do our best work. But ultimately all of those things depend on what I am getting out of it; I'm not working hard for charity, I'm working hard because I feel I am being paid to do so; I like to see the company succeed because it will mean the continued existence of my job and financial benefits for me, not because I see the company as some intrinsic part of my soul I need for existence or something like that. I guess there's always a give and take with it; pay me well and keep me happy and you'll get more than your money's worth in the end, but it's still a transactional relationship at the end of the day. (I should also note I've been at the same company (or company that acquired previous company) for 18 years, basically since finishing grad school.)
 
Kepler said:
I'm really old and I have never once heard anyone under a $50M net worth suggest a worker owes his employer anything but a kick in the ass the second his back is turned.

Middle class or poor, every person I have ever met hates owners. I'm sure there was a feeling of loyalty back when companies took care of their workers (because they understood it was better for business), but not since the Harvard MBAs got a hold of Main Street in the 80s. Now it's sharpen the knife and wait.
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Sorry that you are not aware of the younger people getting bashed for changing companies at a much higher rate than when I worked (and stayed for the pension). People get larger raises changing companies than internally. Crazy that it happens within an industry. Go from Nissan to Ford to Chrysler, back to Ford, to GM, and all of a sudden you are an upper manager. Because none of them would promote you internally.

I've seen multiple things about it and hearing about it at work.
 
MichVandal said:
Sorry that you are not aware of the younger people getting bashed for changing companies at a much higher rate than when I worked (and stayed for the pension). People get larger raises changing companies than internally. Crazy that it happens within an industry. Go from Nissan to Ford to Chrysler, back to Ford, to GM, and all of a sudden you are an upper manager. Because none of them would promote you internally.

I've seen multiple things about it and hearing about it at work.
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Why would anyone care about anyone else's work history? This stuff mystifies me. Maybe one good thing about northeasterners being so pathologically cutthroat is they have no time to pass judgment on (acknowledge the existence of) coworkers.
 
MichVandal said:
People get larger raises changing companies than internally. Crazy that it happens within an industry. Go from Nissan to Ford to Chrysler, back to Ford, to GM, and all of a sudden you are an upper manager. Because none of them would promote you internally.
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My experience in the last 10 years pretty much aligns with this. Did the Big 6 for a while, jumped to a pure-play boutique firm for about 2.5 years, then left for a mid-tier last year.

The difference is, management doesn't seem to whine about it and it never comes up in interviews. Probably because some degree of hopping has long been the norm in the IT space, and our managers tend to skew younger as well, so most of them get it.
 
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