Business, Economics, and Taxes: Eat Cereal for Dinner

[Handyman]

Hell I teach at a Charter school that pays me about 35% less than I could be making in the district. (actually likely more) There is not a chance I would leave my current job because they treat me way better, give me a much better work/life balance and the job doesnt suck out my soul.

 

[St. Clown]

Just saw an interesting reminder- right now, we are operating on trade deals that dumpy made. The updated NAFTA is a dumpy deal. And how many jobs did that bring back to the US? That's what it was supposed to do, right? And it didn't really work out.

It's starting to make me thing that what the right wing really wants is to put the poor in such a bad shape that they will work for slave money. For some reason, they are shocked that even immigrants that come in legally to work don't want to deal with that. Nebraska is claiming they will be bankrupt by the end of the year because of the workers just went home or they were force out. Which is EXACTLY what they voted for.

And the really stupid part is that they clearly don't understand that our economy requires consumers. The more consumption, the more money is made. And on a relative income basis, billionaires spend a small fraction of what people making less than $30,000 spend. I've gone through the math, and it's hard to consume $1,000,000,000 of stuff in a year- where it's totally gone after 365 days. It's pretty easy to do with $30,000.

If we *really* want manufacturing jobs to come back, then they need to be skilled jobs, not mindless line workers. Those jobs are gone thanks to billionaires thinking they are not making enough money. They don't want to pay actual hard work that *seems* easy- especially people who harvest their food.

I'm really looking forward to visiting Finland later this year to see a country where there's a good progressive tax to make sure the lower end can still consume stuff knowing the rich can't. A country that really focuses on homelessness. A country that really focuses on poor people. Just accept the handful of lazy people to capture the hard workers who just can't get things together. A country where education is so, so, so very good. I doubt we will see all of what works, but it will be interesting to learn what we can.

They took the wrong lessons when reading “The Grapes of Wrath.”

 

[St. Clown]

That was less of an issue prior to the 90s. But yes, there is devaluation on that front as well.

GenAI is a tool, not some new automation overlord. Do not take it too seriously.

Our dev teams have an AI tool for generating code. Management watches how often the suggested code is added to production applications. It’s about a 30% rate for unaltered adoption of that code. AI still requires a lot of hand holding.

 

[Jimjamesak]

JFC there is a lot of “check your privilege” needed in this thread.

All jobs are boring and repetitive and soul sucking, it’s just a matter of to what degree it is to you personally. Plenty of you would find my blue collar job terrible, I’d fucking kill myself if I was in an office most of the time. Surprisingly, repetitive tasks can be quite fulfilling to some people, especially if they’re compensated reasonably well. It also doesn’t mean they’re stupid.

You know why a lot of blue collar jobs are needed? Because going to school fucking sucks. Doubly so when you have to pay a lot of money for it. I know that this might come as a shock to most of you on here, but to plenty of us it really does. Sitting in classrooms, having to follow boring curriculum, homework! Doesn’t mean we’re stupid or lazy or any other descriptor you can think of to make yourselves feel superior either, I actually love reading and learning about various topics that pique my interest. I know from my experience though that I barely tolerated high school (if it wasn’t for sports I probably would’ve ended up dropping out) and college was something I was forced into by my parents. Trying to go for even a BS business degree would probably drive me insane (in fact it kinda did).

But, there is a large chunk of this country, and the world, that fully believes I don’t deserve to earn a real living and be happy.

And a lot of you here are closer to that chunk than you think.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

I'm fully cognizant of my privilege, thanks. I was mainly recounting history, and re-reading I can see where I've implied that all blue collar jobs aren't fulfilling or are for stupid people. I should've clarified that they aren't fulfilling for me (nor apparently for 75% of the rest of the country either). And I will disagree that all jobs are repetitive and boring, but that's a separate argument.

I don't think anyone here is saying that you don't deserve to earn a living for working with your hands, and no one is saying that blue collar jobs should be automated out of existence. If you like doing that stuff, great - you're in the minority and you deserve to earn a proper living doing it. The UAW used to do that for their workers, but thanks to decades of attacks on labor, they've lost the power to bargain and these days they barely provide the scraps they can.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I'm fully cognizant of my privilege, thanks. I was mainly recounting history, and re-reading I can see where I've implied that all blue collar jobs aren't fulfilling or are for stupid people. I should've clarified that they aren't fulfilling for me (nor apparently for 75% of the rest of the country either). And I will disagree that all jobs are repetitive and boring, but that's a separate argument.

I don't think anyone here is saying that you don't deserve to earn a living for working with your hands, and no one is saying that blue collar jobs should be automated out of existence. If you like doing that stuff, great - you're in the minority and you deserve to earn a proper living doing it. The UAW used to do that for their workers, but thanks to decades of attacks on labor, they've lost the power to bargain and these days they barely provide the scraps they can.

If you were fully cognizant of your privilege you would’ve made this reply seem a little less condescending and dismissive.

 

[aparch]

It's starting to make me thing that what the right wing really wants is to put the poor in such a bad shape that they will work for slave money.

You mean exactly how the Trump organization turned a blind eye to the contractors of the Dubai tower who seized the passports of their immigrant workers and charged them rent to stay in a company town that just happened to be equal or just more than their wages?

 

[Handyman]

JFC there is a lot of “check your privilege” needed in this thread.

All jobs are boring and repetitive and soul sucking, it’s just a matter of to what degree it is to you personally. Plenty of you would find my blue collar job terrible, I’d fucking kill myself if I was in an office most of the time. Surprisingly, repetitive tasks can be quite fulfilling to some people, especially if they’re compensated reasonably well. It also doesn’t mean they’re stupid.

You know why a lot of blue collar jobs are needed? Because going to school fucking sucks. Doubly so when you have to pay a lot of money for it. I know that this might come as a shock to most of you on here, but to plenty of us it really does. Sitting in classrooms, having to follow boring curriculum, homework! Doesn’t mean we’re stupid or lazy or any other descriptor you can think of to make yourselves feel superior either, I actually love reading and learning about various topics that pique my interest. I know from my experience though that I barely tolerated high school (if it wasn’t for sports I probably would’ve ended up dropping out) and college was something I was forced into by my parents. Trying to go for even a BS business degree would probably drive me insane (in fact it kinda did).

But, there is a large chunk of this country, and the world, that fully believes I don’t deserve to earn a real living and be happy.

And a lot of you here are closer to that chunk than you think.

I dont think anyone is disputing any of that...we are saying money is not going to make jobs that make you miserable less miserable. In earlier generations when you could buy a house for the wages you made in a factory...it didn't make the job any better. It just made it easier to justify keeping it if you hated it. Or take you, salary is not going to make you happy if you are stuck in an office all day. The soul sucking nature of work is not about the money (well in general) or the station it is about doing something that you yourself cannot stand doing.

(at least with me) I think you are taking this all wrong. We aren't looking down at those jobs or those who work them, we are just saying those jobs aren't jobs most of us (and the majority of Americans) want to work even if the pay is good. That is not a slight on those that do work them...I would never say they are dumber (hell I would argue they are smarter!) or lazier. I say this as an educator (former college, now HS) that the value of higher ed has been completely devalued in about a dozen ways anyways.

 

[unofan]

That was less of an issue prior to the 90s. But yes, there is devaluation on that front as well.

GenAI is a tool, not some new automation overlord. Do not take it too seriously.

There are true believers that think AI will replace attorneys. And absent exponential improvements, they're all dead wrong.

I don't think there's been a single time the AI results in a Google search, for instance, have gotten a legal question right outside of being lucky, because the sourced materials universally never say what the AI interprets it as saying when read in context. And that doesn't even take into account hallucinated results.

Hell, I tried to Google "motorcycle engine temperatures" the other day to make sure mine wasn't overheating, and the AI returned a note about making sure to stay hydrated to avoid overheating.

But yes, the AI overlords are going to turn us into the Matrix tomorrow.

 

[Kepler]

JFC there is a lot of “check your privilege” needed in this thread.

All jobs are boring and repetitive and soul sucking, it’s just a matter of to what degree it is to you personally. Plenty of you would find my blue collar job terrible, I’d fucking kill myself if I was in an office most of the time. Surprisingly, repetitive tasks can be quite fulfilling to some people, especially if they’re compensated reasonably well. It also doesn’t mean they’re stupid.

My jobs haven't been boring, repetitive or soul sucking; that is my privilege.

They've been easy. On-the-job injuries: zero. Health effects: zero. And all for more pay, more benefits, and being treated with greater care by employers and with greater esteem by neighbors, officials, and women.

And in exchange for what? I figure out problems and how to communicate them, how to get people to talk to each other, how to socialize stove-piped expertise for everybody's benefit. Work anybody can do. Why the hell am I paid 2x what an experienced blue collar worker is? That is ridiculous.

And I don't know if you were responding to me but I wasn't saying blue collars are "stupid" at all. I can't figure out machinery; I can't figure out basic E&M. I don't understand cars. And it's not just unfamiliarity: I don't have the acumen. We all have different strengths.

I will say something in defense of school, though. You say you hated it and then you give a laundry list of reasons why. But what you hated wasn't education, it was animal training. I hated school until college, too: it's boring and brutal and has no joy. It is an assembly line for compliant workers, it has nothing to do with education unless you find that one talented teacher.

When real education starts, it's rocket fuel for your soul. You get addicted to the high. There is nothing better than the feeling of real learning and discovery. And of course you know this yourself because you learn the things you love in your own life. It is a crime that isn't the way we teach every single student from day one. We only don't because business wants obedient, beaten-down serfs.

 

[Kepler]

I tried to Google "motorcycle engine temperatures" the other day to make sure mine wasn't overheating, and the AI returned a note about making sure to stay hydrated to avoid overheating.

Sound advice, though...

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

There are true believers that think AI will replace attorneys. And absent exponential improvements, they're all dead wrong.

I don't think there's been a single time the AI results in a Google search, for instance, have gotten a legal question right outside of being lucky, because the sourced materials universally never say what the AI interprets it as saying when read in context. And that doesn't even take into account hallucinated results.

Hell, I tried to Google "motorcycle engine temperatures" the other day to make sure mine wasn't overheating, and the AI returned a note about making sure to stay hydrated to avoid overheating.

But yes, the AI overlords are going to turn us into the Matrix tomorrow.

There are so many ways to interpret and argue about a law or legal document that I can't fathom ever getting good legal answers out of even a well-trained model (not to mention failing to account for the habits and prejudices of whatever judge or jury you might face). I would never expect AI to be able to handle the nuances of analyzing a specific situation for a promissory estoppel claim, for example. At least, not the way AI is built today.

 

[LynahFan]

There are so many ways to interpret and argue about a law or legal document that I can't fathom ever getting good legal answers out of even a well-trained model (not to mention failing to account for the habits and prejudices of whatever judge or jury you might face). I would never expect AI to be able to handle the nuances of analyzing a specific situation for a promissory estoppel claim, for example. At least, not the way AI is built today.

Fully agree. AI may be okay for getting the 80% solution (so, a great tool for engineers!), but 80% will never be good enough for law, medicine, safety-critical applications, etc. Unless you're Trump, I guess.....

 

[walrus]

.

All jobs are boring and repetitive and soul sucking,

. It also doesn’t mean they’re stupid.

In Fairness only Kepler thinks every one is stupid

 

[Drew S.]

I’m sure everyone has a different experience but for me office work was a lot better back in the day. Microsoft Teams is the worst thing that ever happened to white collar workers and there is so much more politics and bureaucracy now than there ever used to be.

I think pay is by far the biggest issue with factory/blue collar jobs. If they paid better plenty of people would be interested.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I dont think anyone is disputing any of that...we are saying money is not going to make jobs that make you miserable less miserable. In earlier generations when you could buy a house for the wages you made in a factory...it didn't make the job any better. It just made it easier to justify keeping it if you hated it. Or take you, salary is not going to make you happy if you are stuck in an office all day. The soul sucking nature of work is not about the money (well in general) or the station it is about doing something that you yourself cannot stand doing.

(at least with me) I think you are taking this all wrong. We aren't looking down at those jobs or those who work them, we are just saying those jobs aren't jobs most of us (and the majority of Americans) want to work even if the pay is good. That is not a slight on those that do work them...I would never say they are dumber (hell I would argue they are smarter!) or lazier. I say this as an educator (former college, now HS) that the value of higher ed has been completely devalued in about a dozen ways anyways.

To be fair, I’m not just arguing about money = happiness. It’s about being valued = happiness, and money is part of being valued.

Another very important aspect of being valued is being treated with dignity. Now I'm not going to expect that from corporations anytime soon, dignity does increase shareholder value, but a little bit of dignity from society would be nice.

That's the biggest thing around here in this discussion, there is a lot of condescension. "Oh it might make you happy." All of you saying "well I don't think you're stupid and you do deserve a living wage" feels so forced and insincere. There's a reason why 75% don't want to work those jobs, because we, as a society, have spent the last 50+ years devaluing and demeaning blue collar work. And if there is any "glorification" of blue collar work it's done by rich right wing assholes having a cosplay adventure (looking at you Mike Rowe).

I get it, I'm surrounded by a bunch of mostly elite educated mostly engineers around here. I don't really expect any of you to understand the joys of blue collar work, but y'all could be a little respectful.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I will say something in defense of school, though. You say you hated it and then you give a laundry list of reasons why. But what you hated wasn't education, it was animal training. I hated school until college, too: it's boring and brutal and has no joy. It is an assembly line for compliant workers, it has nothing to do with education unless you find that one talented teacher.

When real education starts, it's rocket fuel for your soul. You get addicted to the high. There is nothing better than the feeling of real learning and discovery. And of course you know this yourself because you learn the things you love in your own life. It is a crime that isn't the way we teach every single student from day one. We only don't because business wants obedient, beaten-down serfs.

Not everyone went to an Ivy League school Kep.

The vast majority of higher education is no different than secondary or elementary education.

Learning can be fun. School sucks.

 

[Handyman]

There are true believers that think AI will replace attorneys. And absent exponential improvements, they're all dead wrong.

I don't think there's been a single time the AI results in a Google search, for instance, have gotten a legal question right outside of being lucky, because the sourced materials universally never say what the AI interprets it as saying when read in context. And that doesn't even take into account hallucinated results.

Hell, I tried to Google "motorcycle engine temperatures" the other day to make sure mine wasn't overheating, and the AI returned a note about making sure to stay hydrated to avoid overheating.

But yes, the AI overlords are going to turn us into the Matrix tomorrow.

As I posted the other day AI was duped by The Onion. AI is not actual intelligence...it is an information aggregator.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

I used AI today at my job. I used it for what it is good for, it took 10 seconds, and it saved me trying to google it and read something to get the answer I needed.

 

[Handyman]

To be fair, I’m not just arguing about money = happiness. It’s about being valued = happiness, and money is part of being valued.

Another very important aspect of being valued is being treated with dignity. Now I'm not going to expect that from corporations anytime soon, dignity does increase shareholder value, but a little bit of dignity from society would be nice.

That's the biggest thing around here in this discussion, there is a lot of condescension. "Oh it might make you happy." All of you saying "well I don't think you're stupid and you do deserve a living wage" feels so forced and insincere. There's a reason why 75% don't want to work those jobs, because we, as a society, have spent the last 50+ years devaluing and demeaning blue collar work. And if there is any "glorification" of blue collar work it's done by rich right wing assholes having a cosplay adventure (looking at you Mike Rowe).

I get it, I'm surrounded by a bunch of mostly elite educated mostly engineers around here. I don't really expect any of you to understand the joys of blue collar work, but y'all could be a little respectful.

Like I said...I am choosing to make less money at my current job because they treat me way better.

I have also done plenty of Blue Collar work...I am not an engineer I am a HS teacher. I also have spent the majority of my life near the poverty line.