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Big Ten > NCHC
- Thread starter Speed Kills
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Tipsy McStagger
Falling on fans at NHC since 2001
At the U of M, Motzko would be on a network available in 90 million households. There would probably only be 6,000 people watching it, but still.
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
This is difficult for me. On one-hand you have conference pride, but the other you have the idiotic minnesota dolts. You are not the U of M, Michigan is older and therefore is the real U of M. minny was "born" in 1851, 34 years after Michigan. You are NOT U of M....
This is difficult for me. On one-hand you have conference pride, but the other you have the idiotic minnesota dolts. You are not the U of M, Michigan is older and therefore is the real U of M. minny was "born" in 1851, 34 years after Michigan. You are NOT U of M....
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
UMich certainly has ancient history. It won 6 of it's titles in the first 9 years of the NCAAs and only three since. Minnesota hockey may be overrated, but at least it's relevant to fans other than history buffs.
UMich certainly has ancient history. It won 6 of it's titles in the first 9 years of the NCAAs and only three since. Minnesota hockey may be overrated, but at least it's relevant to fans other than history buffs.
Tipsy McStagger
Falling on fans at NHC since 2001
People in Minnesota don't care about your claims to the "u of m" moniker. That's what we call it when conversing with other Minnesotans. You being a dooshbag on a message board isn't going to change that.
FredsDeadFriend
New member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
It's quite simple Tipsy. B1G schools primary mission is not to win National Titles, or make Frozen Fours, it is to improve the quality of living in the states they represent and they do this in several ways, but for our discussion I will focus on what they do for the hockey players they recruit to come play for them. They give those players the opportunity to get one of the nations top educations, not saying they all take advantage of that opportunity, but its available to them. Part of that education includes getting opportunities for future employment in the sport they play, if they don't make it as a professional playing their sport, which is something ALOT of B1G hockey players do get to do. But unlike football, hockey players are far more likely to get good opportunities to leave school early to play professionally. A lot of one and dones and two and dones and three and dones on B1G men's hockey rosters.
Just look up how many players B1G programs have sent and send to the NHL compared to NCHC programs, and there is really no comparison.
Now the B1G schools, at the time of the formation of the B1G conf, had FAR MORE successful histories than the NCHC schools had, up to the time of the formation of the NCHC.
But the formation of these 2 new conferences came at a time when the NHL poaching of B1G rosters was at a sort of peak, or at least the negative effect of the poaching was at a peak, while the NCHC programs were not similarly affected, at least not yet.
But if programs like UMD and Omaha and now SCSU continue to thrive, NHL teams will start targeting their players and in a few years those programs could suffer through similar down periods as MSU, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan all have in the last decade, decade and a half.
It's quite simple Tipsy. B1G schools primary mission is not to win National Titles, or make Frozen Fours, it is to improve the quality of living in the states they represent and they do this in several ways, but for our discussion I will focus on what they do for the hockey players they recruit to come play for them. They give those players the opportunity to get one of the nations top educations, not saying they all take advantage of that opportunity, but its available to them. Part of that education includes getting opportunities for future employment in the sport they play, if they don't make it as a professional playing their sport, which is something ALOT of B1G hockey players do get to do. But unlike football, hockey players are far more likely to get good opportunities to leave school early to play professionally. A lot of one and dones and two and dones and three and dones on B1G men's hockey rosters.
Just look up how many players B1G programs have sent and send to the NHL compared to NCHC programs, and there is really no comparison.
Now the B1G schools, at the time of the formation of the B1G conf, had FAR MORE successful histories than the NCHC schools had, up to the time of the formation of the NCHC.
But the formation of these 2 new conferences came at a time when the NHL poaching of B1G rosters was at a sort of peak, or at least the negative effect of the poaching was at a peak, while the NCHC programs were not similarly affected, at least not yet.
But if programs like UMD and Omaha and now SCSU continue to thrive, NHL teams will start targeting their players and in a few years those programs could suffer through similar down periods as MSU, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan all have in the last decade, decade and a half.
I've lived near two Bi6 schools and in Socorro, NM (home to NM Tech, enrollment 1200 ish) This vision is dramatically at odds with my experience. The larger the school, the more arrogant it is in its relations to the community, and that is really my main beef with places like UMich. Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, and Notre Dame not so much, but the 30000+ student state U's... Ick.
purpleinnebraska
Well-known member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
According to this table http://www.uscho.com/pro-signings-2017/ from elsewhere on this website, there were more NCHC early pro signings last year than there were Big signings.
According to this table http://www.uscho.com/pro-signings-2017/ from elsewhere on this website, there were more NCHC early pro signings last year than there were Big signings.
FredsDeadFriend
New member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
"last year"?? do it for a decade straight and I might be impressed. Btw, this would only go to further my point, wouldn't it?
"last year"?? do it for a decade straight and I might be impressed. Btw, this would only go to further my point, wouldn't it?
purpleinnebraska
Well-known member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
Hey, I'm a WCHA guy. I don't have a dog in this fight. But if you think the Big has fallen behind because they have early departures and the NCHC doesn't, you're high.
Since the conferences are only in their 5th year, a decade straight would be kinda dumb. And if you think Guentzel (not from last year) Boeser, Heinen, etc. further your point, you've forgotten what your point is.
Hey, I'm a WCHA guy. I don't have a dog in this fight. But if you think the Big has fallen behind because they have early departures and the NCHC doesn't, you're high.
FredsDeadFriend
New member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
Well Stratus, tiny little schools HAVE TO have good relations with their town/community, because what they do/the benefits of what they do, only in limited ways, benefits anything or anyone beyond the town or community they are located in, and rarely does anyone outside of that community care about their sports teams, either.
In contrast, the B1G schools WHO PLAY HOCKEY, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan St & Ohio St are not tiny little niche schools who need to kiss the butts of the town/city they are located in. Why? Because the community I said that they represent was entire states and the community they serve goes well beyond even their entire states. Their states are their primary focus, but indirectly their impact goes well beyond the states they represent. The B1G schools do BILLIONS of dollars of research every year that benefits not just their local communities, and not only their state, and not only the country as a whole, but the whole world. If you ranked conferences according to their research dollars, the 2nd best conference would only pull in HALF as much as the B1G pulls in. And these schools train and educate so many doctors and lawyers and businessmen and teachers, etc., that their entire states benefit as well as many communities outside of their states, and their alumni bases are so large that they are spread out all over the country.
And I'd bet that YOU PERSONALLY have benefitted in a very significant way by the contributions of at least one, if not several of the B1G schools that you seem to despise. Btw, 3 of the 4 schools you listed as examples are not land grant schools and JH and ND are not part of the B1G outside of playing in the B1G in just one sport.
Well Stratus, tiny little schools HAVE TO have good relations with their town/community, because what they do/the benefits of what they do, only in limited ways, benefits anything or anyone beyond the town or community they are located in, and rarely does anyone outside of that community care about their sports teams, either.
In contrast, the B1G schools WHO PLAY HOCKEY, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan St & Ohio St are not tiny little niche schools who need to kiss the butts of the town/city they are located in. Why? Because the community I said that they represent was entire states and the community they serve goes well beyond even their entire states. Their states are their primary focus, but indirectly their impact goes well beyond the states they represent. The B1G schools do BILLIONS of dollars of research every year that benefits not just their local communities, and not only their state, and not only the country as a whole, but the whole world. If you ranked conferences according to their research dollars, the 2nd best conference would only pull in HALF as much as the B1G pulls in. And these schools train and educate so many doctors and lawyers and businessmen and teachers, etc., that their entire states benefit as well as many communities outside of their states, and their alumni bases are so large that they are spread out all over the country.
And I'd bet that YOU PERSONALLY have benefitted in a very significant way by the contributions of at least one, if not several of the B1G schools that you seem to despise. Btw, 3 of the 4 schools you listed as examples are not land grant schools and JH and ND are not part of the B1G outside of playing in the B1G in just one sport.
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
According to the College Hockey, Inc., site, and if we go back to early pro signings at the end of the 2012-13 season (the summer before the teams started play in their new conferences), B1G teams have seen 39 early departures for the pros and NCHC teams have seen 46. If you just want to count from after the first season of realigned conferences, it's B1G 30 and NCHC 38.
Obviously, for the first few seasons there were 8 NCHC teams and 6 B1G teams (now 7), but not much difference between the two leagues, and certainly not to the extent represented by you.
http://collegehockeyinc.com/pro-signings-2016-17-nhl-college-ncaa-free-agent.php
According to the College Hockey, Inc., site, and if we go back to early pro signings at the end of the 2012-13 season (the summer before the teams started play in their new conferences), B1G teams have seen 39 early departures for the pros and NCHC teams have seen 46. If you just want to count from after the first season of realigned conferences, it's B1G 30 and NCHC 38.
Obviously, for the first few seasons there were 8 NCHC teams and 6 B1G teams (now 7), but not much difference between the two leagues, and certainly not to the extent represented by you.
http://collegehockeyinc.com/pro-signings-2016-17-nhl-college-ncaa-free-agent.php
FredsDeadFriend
New member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
The conferences being talked about right now may have only been around for 5 years, but the teams that make up those conferences have been around for much longer than 5 years, outside of the obvious Penn St. And the trend I'm talking about goes back much further than 5 years.
If you go back over 2 decades, you can see Michigan winning Titles in 96 and 98, but then struggling to make it back to the Championship game after that. Then Minnesota won back to back Titles in 02 and 03 and after a return to the FF in 05, went 6 years without making it back to the FF. Wisconsin won a title in 06 and outside of a run to the title game in 2010 has struggled to get back since. Mich St won the title in 07 and hasn't made a FF since.
That is B1G teams winning 6 titles over a 12 year period, and starting in 98 making 18 FFs over a 15 year period, and it was BC/BU winning 4 titles those last 5 years of that 15 year period that prevented B1G teams from continuing their run of winning 50% of the titles. But B1G teams finished as Runners Up 4 times from 08 to 14, with NCHC teams only making 2 Title games in the same period.
And to show my theory isn't a biased one, I'll use Denver's back to back titles in 04 and 05 to further my point. DU went 10 years straight without making a FF after those titles. Why? Probably because DU's roster suffered a lot of early losses to the NHL after that impressive run. And UND after their 2 titles in 97 and 2000 went 15 years without winning another title.
But outside of UND and DU, the rest of the NCHC hasn't done much of anything outside of having 1 or 2 decent seasons. Not enough to gain the kind of attention from the NHL that the Big 4 of the B1G have gotten. That was 2/3rds of the B1G conference before this year, and 80% of the B1G teams that existed 10 years ago. On the converse, 75% of the NCHC would struggle to find more than a handful of great NHLers among their alumni.
And I never said the NCHC schools don't have early departures, and in fact I specifically stated that schools like SCSU and NOU, because of recent success have recently or will start to suffer the same thing that B1G schools have historically had to go through if those schools win a Title or two.
The conferences being talked about right now may have only been around for 5 years, but the teams that make up those conferences have been around for much longer than 5 years, outside of the obvious Penn St. And the trend I'm talking about goes back much further than 5 years.
If you go back over 2 decades, you can see Michigan winning Titles in 96 and 98, but then struggling to make it back to the Championship game after that. Then Minnesota won back to back Titles in 02 and 03 and after a return to the FF in 05, went 6 years without making it back to the FF. Wisconsin won a title in 06 and outside of a run to the title game in 2010 has struggled to get back since. Mich St won the title in 07 and hasn't made a FF since.
That is B1G teams winning 6 titles over a 12 year period, and starting in 98 making 18 FFs over a 15 year period, and it was BC/BU winning 4 titles those last 5 years of that 15 year period that prevented B1G teams from continuing their run of winning 50% of the titles. But B1G teams finished as Runners Up 4 times from 08 to 14, with NCHC teams only making 2 Title games in the same period.
And to show my theory isn't a biased one, I'll use Denver's back to back titles in 04 and 05 to further my point. DU went 10 years straight without making a FF after those titles. Why? Probably because DU's roster suffered a lot of early losses to the NHL after that impressive run. And UND after their 2 titles in 97 and 2000 went 15 years without winning another title.
But outside of UND and DU, the rest of the NCHC hasn't done much of anything outside of having 1 or 2 decent seasons. Not enough to gain the kind of attention from the NHL that the Big 4 of the B1G have gotten. That was 2/3rds of the B1G conference before this year, and 80% of the B1G teams that existed 10 years ago. On the converse, 75% of the NCHC would struggle to find more than a handful of great NHLers among their alumni.
And I never said the NCHC schools don't have early departures, and in fact I specifically stated that schools like SCSU and NOU, because of recent success have recently or will start to suffer the same thing that B1G schools have historically had to go through if those schools win a Title or two.
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
Cliff Notes version:
Current B1G teams were great 10-20 years ago.
B1G teams have been decimated recently by early departures.
No explanation for why NCHC, with more early departures, seems to be having success.
Look, if there is one thing that pretty much all knowledgeable college hockey fans can agree on it's that since it's formation five years ago, and notwithstanding overwhelming advantages in terms of size, money, facilities, recruiting, television exposure, etc..., B1G hockey teams have grossly underperformed on a national level. The vast majority of those fans don't expect that to continue indefinitely, but to argue otherwise at this point in time suggests ignorance.
Cliff Notes version:
Current B1G teams were great 10-20 years ago.
B1G teams have been decimated recently by early departures.
No explanation for why NCHC, with more early departures, seems to be having success.
Look, if there is one thing that pretty much all knowledgeable college hockey fans can agree on it's that since it's formation five years ago, and notwithstanding overwhelming advantages in terms of size, money, facilities, recruiting, television exposure, etc..., B1G hockey teams have grossly underperformed on a national level. The vast majority of those fans don't expect that to continue indefinitely, but to argue otherwise at this point in time suggests ignorance.
FredsDeadFriend
New member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
Well, yes, things are improving for the 8 teams in the NCHC recently, which is reflected in the # of early signings of NCHC players recently, but I'm looking at a wider scope and longer term trends.
And also, trying to include Notre Dame, if you did, and PSU is not really fair in light of the point I am trying to make. PSU only suffered 3 early losses during that time frame, so that would be 36 early departures for the 5 B1G teams with long histories of hockey from 2012-13 season to now. That's 7.2 per team compared to 46 for the 8 NCHC teams which is 5.75 per team.
7.2 > 5.75
But the gap is closing, and may have reversed by now? But if that is true, then I predict it will effect how well teams from the NCHC do in the future when their better recruits start leaving earlier and earlier and it disrupts things for those programs.
Because there is also a difference between some Jr leaving a team with little hope of doing anything his Sr year who goes on to do little to nothing in the NHL and a Frosh leaving a team with high hopes simply because he is so **** good and has NHL stardom awaiting him.
How do you quantify such a thing? Well, not sure, to be honest. But how about the Big 4 of the B1G producing twice as many 300 pt scorers in the NHL compared to the top 4 teams from the NCHC?? Granted some of those players didn't leave early, but a lot of them did.
Hey, I was a huge WCHA fan, but unlike 99% of the Minnesota and Wisconsin fans out there, was in favor of the formation of the B1G conference, not so much because of the short term benefits to my favorite team, which there are basically none, but for the long term benefits to college hockey in general. Breaking up and spreading out the wealth that was the old WCHA and doing away with the overrated CCHA altogether were both good things for college hockey, at least imo. I think the creation of the B1G was a good thing for Mich, MSU and OSU(as the CCHA was one of the lamest conferences), and obviously PSU, and down the line it could be for Notre Dame as well. And having 3 competitive Western Conferences is better for college hockey in general.
The B1G will bounce back, as it seems is happening this year, with 3 teams very likely to make the NCAA tourney, and maybe 4?
Well, yes, things are improving for the 8 teams in the NCHC recently, which is reflected in the # of early signings of NCHC players recently, but I'm looking at a wider scope and longer term trends.
And also, trying to include Notre Dame, if you did, and PSU is not really fair in light of the point I am trying to make. PSU only suffered 3 early losses during that time frame, so that would be 36 early departures for the 5 B1G teams with long histories of hockey from 2012-13 season to now. That's 7.2 per team compared to 46 for the 8 NCHC teams which is 5.75 per team.
7.2 > 5.75
But the gap is closing, and may have reversed by now? But if that is true, then I predict it will effect how well teams from the NCHC do in the future when their better recruits start leaving earlier and earlier and it disrupts things for those programs.
Because there is also a difference between some Jr leaving a team with little hope of doing anything his Sr year who goes on to do little to nothing in the NHL and a Frosh leaving a team with high hopes simply because he is so **** good and has NHL stardom awaiting him.
How do you quantify such a thing? Well, not sure, to be honest. But how about the Big 4 of the B1G producing twice as many 300 pt scorers in the NHL compared to the top 4 teams from the NCHC?? Granted some of those players didn't leave early, but a lot of them did.
Hey, I was a huge WCHA fan, but unlike 99% of the Minnesota and Wisconsin fans out there, was in favor of the formation of the B1G conference, not so much because of the short term benefits to my favorite team, which there are basically none, but for the long term benefits to college hockey in general. Breaking up and spreading out the wealth that was the old WCHA and doing away with the overrated CCHA altogether were both good things for college hockey, at least imo. I think the creation of the B1G was a good thing for Mich, MSU and OSU(as the CCHA was one of the lamest conferences), and obviously PSU, and down the line it could be for Notre Dame as well. And having 3 competitive Western Conferences is better for college hockey in general.
The B1G will bounce back, as it seems is happening this year, with 3 teams very likely to make the NCAA tourney, and maybe 4?
FredsDeadFriend
New member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
???
Not over the period of time you mentioned. At least not on a per team basis.
???
Not over the period of time you mentioned. At least not on a per team basis.
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FredsDeadFriend
New member
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
And since this current season hasn't concluded yet, we have no idea what effect last year's early departures will have on this year's teams comes NCAA tourney time.
So excluding the last year, looking at the time frame you mentioned, the 5 relevant B1G teams lost 4 freshmen compared to only 2 for the 8 NCHC teams and those 5 B1G teams lost 3 Sophs with the 8 NCHC teams losing 9 sophs. So to quantify this, I added up the # of years of eligibility lost and it's 18 years for the 5 B1G teams, and 24 for the 8 NCHC teams, or 3.6 years per B1G team and only 3 years per NCHC team.
Just an example how looking at it too simplistically doesn't tell you the whole story.
Remember, I'm not including Notre Dame or PSU in this analysis.
And since this current season hasn't concluded yet, we have no idea what effect last year's early departures will have on this year's teams comes NCAA tourney time.
So excluding the last year, looking at the time frame you mentioned, the 5 relevant B1G teams lost 4 freshmen compared to only 2 for the 8 NCHC teams and those 5 B1G teams lost 3 Sophs with the 8 NCHC teams losing 9 sophs. So to quantify this, I added up the # of years of eligibility lost and it's 18 years for the 5 B1G teams, and 24 for the 8 NCHC teams, or 3.6 years per B1G team and only 3 years per NCHC team.
Just an example how looking at it too simplistically doesn't tell you the whole story.
Remember, I'm not including Notre Dame or PSU in this analysis.
Re: Big Ten > NCHC
Well, given that the seven B1G teams lost six players to early departure before this season, while the 8 NCHC teams lost 12 players to early departure before this season, yet the NCHC has 6 of it's teams in the top 16 of the pwr, and all 8 in the top 20 of the pwr, it doesn't look like it's having too terrible of an effect on the NCHC this year. But then again, we're not the ones making excuses about early departures.
Well, given that the seven B1G teams lost six players to early departure before this season, while the 8 NCHC teams lost 12 players to early departure before this season, yet the NCHC has 6 of it's teams in the top 16 of the pwr, and all 8 in the top 20 of the pwr, it doesn't look like it's having too terrible of an effect on the NCHC this year. But then again, we're not the ones making excuses about early departures.
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