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Big Ten Conference Tournament

Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

I have posted elsewhere the same thing, that Omaha or maybe Denver make the most sense for the NCHC. And, you are also right that there is no way the NCHC is going to have it's conference tournament in the same city as the Big 10 tourney and the NCHC should not have it's tournament in the Twin Cities, anyway, just on general principles. It's the home of a Big 10 school and one the instigators of the whole "problem" in the first place. As for me, as far as the NCHC tourney is concerned, the Twin Cities can go jump in one of those 10,000 lakes.

I would even go so far as to call the Twin Cities the home of the MAIN instigator of the problem. ;):p
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

Which of the Big Ten schools not named Minnesota can put 12,000+ fans into the X to watch their team play in the conference championship game? Because that what UND did tonight. I think that regardless of where you put the BTCH championship game, the attendance will be very disappointing. It will take MANY years for the tournament to get to averaging 12k per game, none of the fan bases in the big ten are going to fill the seats for the games that don't include their team. It is the combination of UND and MN that makes the WCHA f5 an attendance success, without UND the attendance at the f5 would look just like the attendance the CCHA tournament.

How else do you explain 11.5k for a Thurs afternoon game between DU and MTU
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

pgb-ohio is correct, the Final Five is a superior product to the CCHA finals. And to the HEA finals. And to a lot of other sporting events, hockey or otherwise. It is superior because of organization. It is superior because Minnesota is a great hockey state. It is superior because the Gophers are right down the road. And it is superior because it is a central location amongst several rabid fan bases. There is no argument here.

But the Final Five is going away. The new WCHA might decide to call their championship that name, but we all know it won't be true. The Final Five will die after next year and we will never see anything like it.

The CCHA championships have rarely sold well; they do their best when both Michigan and Michigan State are playing, although there are some outliers (Michigan-Ferris in '03 virtually sold the building out, to my surprise). However, there are other college hockey events at the Joe, and they do quite well; Michigan-Michigan State sold out this season, and of course those two schools set an unmatchable bar for college hockey events in their respective football stadiums. And that is a key word, "event." The B1G finals will be an "Event," one far easier to sell to fans than the CCHA finals that their teams aren't even guaranteed to attend. When the JLA is selling an "Event" (such as UM-MSU) it sells well and the excitement is good.
Nobody in Michigan is advocating that the JLA hold the tournament every season. Compromise is the order of the day, and splitting with the X is a fine idea that continues to engage college hockey's biggest fanbase. Ignoring the other four fanbases every year would be absurd; splitting with the Joe will be fair and it will be successful.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

11k tournament packages sold...

I was talking about FANS physically in the arena not just tickets sold.

No way that 11k+ fans were actually in the arena for that game and the secondary ticket market was VERY soft indicating that their wasn't much demand for any unwanted tickets.

The real question (and one that the WCHA doesn't even know the answer to) is how many of those packages go to MN fans and how many go to everyone else. I suspect that it is about 60% to MN (and UW) fans with the other ~40% going to primarily UND and SCSU fans (but all the other schools have SOME fans who get packages and go annually). That gives a base of about 8k in packages that will be sold.

In general a healthy secondary ticket market exists for the final five as fans sell off tickets to the games that don't include there teams that are bought by fans of the teams that are playing. Many Gopher fans sell of the non-gopher tickets and UND fans buy them for the UND games, some UND fans sell off non-UND tickets and gopher fans will buy them for Gopher games. If you don't really care about sitting the same seats every year, buying only the games you want to see on the secondary market is a good way to do it. Their are those occasions where you might get stuck paying over face or very undesirable locations but that is the risk that you run. With just MN, that secondary market system completely falls apart as gopher fans can't sell their unwanted tickets to recover half of their money if the Gophers lose and are out of it. It much easier to drop $150 for a ticket package knowing that even under the worse cases you should be able to go the one game that your team is in and get $50 for the other tickets.

Caustic hit the nail so squarely on the head that there isn't much more to be gained from this conversation
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

Could be but the box score said attendance 11k and again Thurs afternoon

Weren't a lot of those UND fans? I watched a bit of the game, and it seemed like there were quite a few UND fans gearing up for the nightcap.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

You better watch your mouth next thing you know the rumors from within UNL has them and UNO merging schools. UNL really wants the UNMC under their umbrella this way they can be on par with the rest of the Big Ten. That's what I have heard from some huge UNL money backers. Who knows if it will ever happen but things have changed in Lincoln.

This is, without question, one of the nuttier things I have ever read in this forum.

I have never, EVER, heard so much as even a scintilla of discussion about such a thing from anybody from either school. Regents, school administrators, or, otherwise. The AD's at either school. Even in wild hypothesis. I have never, ever, read any newspaper article or seen any television news story even postulating such a thing. They are both part of the same university system in this state as it is. What, exactly, would be the impetus for this? How would this benefit either school? The campuses are 60 miles apart. How would this make UNL "on a par with the rest of the Big Ten"? Unless there was some economic benefit to the State of Nebraska and it's citizenry by doing this, I can't even imagine how this would even be politically possible. And that is the only possible motivation to do such a thing I can even think of. I'm not even sure it would be legal without state legislative action to make it so. Plus, I don't know how it would even "work". UNL has an enrollment of 24,593 students. UNO has an enrollment of 14,712. Pray tell, how would you operate and/or merge two completely independent campuses and curriculums of this size? In this state, you'd be talking about the functional equivalent of merging two entire counties. Nebraska has 93 counties and the 14 smallest all have less than 1000 people living in each county. Total. Name me any other state university system where there is any sort of precedence for doing any such thing? I can't think of one although I readily acknowledge that it may have happened, somewhere, sometime.

Please explain to me why this would be a good idea and how it would benefit either school on any level because I am dying to know how it would. As a UNO season ticket holder since Day 1, I would think that I would have heard at least some rumor about this at some point if it were even being discussed.

Not buying.

The level of animosity between Omaha and Lincoln and "all things Omaha" and "all things Lincoln" that exists here make this even more implausible to me.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

pgb-ohio is correct, the Final Five is a superior product to the CCHA finals. And to the HEA finals. And to a lot of other sporting events, hockey or otherwise. It is superior because of organization. It is superior because Minnesota is a great hockey state. It is superior because the Gophers are right down the road. And it is superior because it is a central location amongst several rabid fan bases. There is no argument here.

But the Final Five is going away. The new WCHA might decide to call their championship that name, but we all know it won't be true. The Final Five will die after next year and we will never see anything like it.

The CCHA championships have rarely sold well; they do their best when both Michigan and Michigan State are playing, although there are some outliers (Michigan-Ferris in '03 virtually sold the building out, to my surprise). However, there are other college hockey events at the Joe, and they do quite well; Michigan-Michigan State sold out this season, and of course those two schools set an unmatchable bar for college hockey events in their respective football stadiums. And that is a key word, "event." The B1G finals will be an "Event," one far easier to sell to fans than the CCHA finals that their teams aren't even guaranteed to attend. When the JLA is selling an "Event" (such as UM-MSU) it sells well and the excitement is good.
Nobody in Michigan is advocating that the JLA hold the tournament every season. Compromise is the order of the day, and splitting with the X is a fine idea that continues to engage college hockey's biggest fanbase. Ignoring the other four fanbases every year would be absurd; splitting with the Joe will be fair and it will be successful.

You make good points andjust keeping the Championships at the X would be pretty much unfair. Annualy Gopher fans would buy up all of the tickets with several Wisconsin fans. I can pretty much guarantee that no sparty, buckeye, or, please forgive the laughter here, Nittany Lion fans will ever be in Minnesota. There may be a smattering of Michigan fans but come on, the X is kinda far West of what the BTHC's footprint will be.

A few years ago there was a NCAA Regional in Ft. Wayne, that IIRC, was fairly poorly attended. Despite that fiasco (it wasn't as bad as St. Louis was) that may actually be a decent area. It is centrally located and I don't see how any one team could have even a semblance of home ice.

Other than that Undertow's idea of having an alternating location is pretty good, except that the Joe is a dump. Granted, the Wings play there and the atmosphere is pretty cool but only because of the history IF you know it, but it is still pretty crappy. Over-priced watered-down beer, ripped up seats, and dried out Little Caesars pizza is hardly a great environment for hockey.

Plus, it's in Detroit (which isn't as bad as people say but it still isn't ideal)...

I'm just throwing ideas out there but Van Andel in GR? Van Andel is on the smaller side but it has hosted multiple NCAA Regional's.

JMHO...
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

UNL got kicked out of the AAU somewhat recently (they had been on probation for about a decade, I think), and they were contending that they would have met the minimum requirements had they been allowed to count their medical school (also if agricultural research was counted, but it's excluded as places like the USDA don't use a competitive bidding procedure for research grants). Other universities with med schools a similar distance away have been allowed to count it towards their research output, but it all depends on the administrative structure. I don't know if the necessary changes would be feasible, or if the AAU would be willing to let UNL back in even if they could get back up to the bare minimum standards for membership, but that would be the impetus behind such a move.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

UNL got kicked out of the AAU somewhat recently (they had been on probation for about a decade, I think), and they were contending that they would have met the minimum requirements had they been allowed to count their medical school (also if agricultural research was counted, but it's excluded as places like the USDA don't use a competitive bidding procedure for research grants). Other universities with med schools a similar distance away have been allowed to count it towards their research output, but it all depends on the administrative structure. I don't know if the necessary changes would be feasible, or if the AAU would be willing to let UNL back in even if they could get back up to the bare minimum standards for membership, but that would be the impetus behind such a move.

Thank you Mr. Dilks for correctly stating why UNL would like to merge the schools, it makes sense why it would be important to UNL. IMO, the AAU rating is important and currently they are the ONLY school in the Big Ten who is not a part of the prestigious club. Like I told Red Cow it is a rumor I heard from a customer of mine who has money who gives it to the UNL athletic department. Somebody who is prominent in the department said this is what UNL would like to do. It doesn't mean it will happen it is just a rumor. It does make sense.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

While I believe it will end up at either the X or JLA, part of me wonders if Chicago (either Allstate or United) makes sense geographically. The lack of a base in the city hurts the idea, of course...
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

Almington said:
I was talking about FANS physically in the arena not just tickets sold.

No way that 11k+ fans were actually in the arena for that game and the secondary ticket market was VERY soft indicating that their wasn't much demand for any unwanted tickets.

The real question (and one that the WCHA doesn't even know the answer to) is how many of those packages go to MN fans and how many go to everyone else. I suspect that it is about 60% to MN (and UW) fans with the other ~40% going to primarily UND and SCSU fans (but all the other schools have SOME fans who get packages and go annually). That gives a base of about 8k in packages that will be sold.

In general a healthy secondary ticket market exists for the final five as fans sell off tickets to the games that don't include there teams that are bought by fans of the teams that are playing. Many Gopher fans sell of the non-gopher tickets and UND fans buy them for the UND games, some UND fans sell off non-UND tickets and gopher fans will buy them for Gopher games. If you don't really care about sitting the same seats every year, buying only the games you want to see on the secondary market is a good way to do it. Their are those occasions where you might get stuck paying over face or very undesirable locations but that is the risk that you run. With just MN, that secondary market system completely falls apart as gopher fans can't sell their unwanted tickets to recover half of their money if the Gophers lose and are out of it. It much easier to drop $150 for a ticket package knowing that even under the worse cases you should be able to go the one game that your team is in and get $50 for the other tickets.

Caustic hit the nail so squarely on the head that there isn't much more to be gained from this conversation

I don't think there is a percentage, unless you are making deals. You don't have to go to GopherSports.com, Sioux Website, Saint Cloud's webite, or the Scoonie website. It's all sold through Ticketmaster. Hell, they annonced tickets for next year's tournament in the arena would go on sale after as soon as Kent Patterson decided to make some saves so the Sioux v Gophers game would get over.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

While I believe it will end up at either the X or JLA, part of me wonders if Chicago (either Allstate or United) makes sense geographically. The lack of a base in the city hurts the idea, of course...

Rotate between XCel and JLA once, try the third year in Chicago, if it crashes and burns, just flip between the other two for a decade before trying somewhere new again.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

UNL got kicked out of the AAU somewhat recently (they had been on probation for about a decade, I think), and they were contending that they would have met the minimum requirements had they been allowed to count their medical school (also if agricultural research was counted, but it's excluded as places like the USDA don't use a competitive bidding procedure for research grants). Other universities with med schools a similar distance away have been allowed to count it towards their research output, but it all depends on the administrative structure. I don't know if the necessary changes would be feasible, or if the AAU would be willing to let UNL back in even if they could get back up to the bare minimum standards for membership, but that would be the impetus behind such a move.

O.K., I will throw this one into the "plausible theory" category.

The AAU actually had been threatening to toss UNL for even longer than a decade. Harvey Perlman (UNL Chancellor) said publicly back in April '11 when UNL got tossed that they had tried to boot UNL back in 2000 and that they had somehow managed to stave this off for a long time before it finally happened.

From the Lincoln Journal Star on the topic:

Perlman said the AAU's four criteria were unfair disadvantages for UNL because the NU system is organized with separate flagship (UNL) and medical campuses (the University of Nebraska Medical Center). Most AAU institutions have medical schools, which tend to get large amounts of research dollars, Perlman said.

With UNMC's research included, we would have had research expenditures above many other AAU institutions," he said.

Another disadvantage UNL faced, Perlman said, was the AAU policy of not allowing member universities to include research funded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, a major source of funding for UNL. However, the association does count agricultural faculty when weighting rankings, Perlman said.

"Because of our strong commitment as a land-grant institution to serving the state of Nebraska, we are seriously disadvantaged within the AAU ranking system," Perlman said in his email.

He said AAU membership policies also provide consideration for an institution's trajectory, something Perlman believed should have convinced the group's members to allow UNL to remain. Among AAU institutions, UNL has the seventh-largest percentage growth in research expenditures in the past decade, he said. In addition, the university is a leader and partner in research with all of the highest-ranked AAU institutions, he said.

Now, with all this being said, I still maintain that I have never heard even a breadth of a rumor that that anything like merging schools was or has ever been discussed. Additionally, Perlman is bemoaning the non-inclusion of UNMC (the Medical School, whose campus is also located in Omaha like UNO's is) by the AAU into the overall University system dossier. He doesn't say a word about UNO being a part of the scenario and the medical school is on another campus entirely from UNO here in Omaha, albeit within about a 2-3 mile drive on the same street. I don't understand how merging with UNO solves UNL's AAU problems, based on what Perlman says the issues are.

If this was even being rumored, the megagiganticness of such a possibility here would be difficult to keep under wraps if it were even being discussed. If true, the story, in this state, would rival UNL's conference switch in size, even. It would easily and instantly become one of the top news stories of not just the year but of the past few decades in this state.

I am going to start asking around about this one just because your theory isn't totally implausible but my bet is that anybody I ask about it is going to say that it's the first they've heard of it. It's certainly the first I've heard of it. And, while I don't believe it's true I do think somebody may have floated the idea at some point even if just over beers somewhere, some time, and I'm now curious to know if this has any credence at all.

Here's the entire Journal Star article, by the way:

http://journalstar.com/news/local/e...ljtweet&utm_source=ljtweet&utm_medium=ljtweet
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

That's tickets sold. I might be slightly under at 7, but I wouldn't go past 9 as it wasn't 50% filled.

Well that could be the case but eyewitness reports are not very valid as well. You expect everyone to guess? Either way it WAS an afternoon Thurs game. Compare that to other Thurs afternoon games.
 
Well that could be the case but eyewitness reports are not very valid as well. You expect everyone to guess? Either way it WAS an afternoon Thurs game. Compare that to other Thurs afternoon games.

Hey genius. That was the ONLY Thursday afternoon game played.
 
Re: Big Ten Conference Tournament

Rotate between XCel and JLA once, try the third year in Chicago, if it crashes and burns, just flip between the other two for a decade before trying somewhere new again.

The X or JLA imo would be the best two options.

Lets say they decide to bring it to Chicago as a feeler or bait. Im not sure the numbers would do much more than decieve since MI, MN, and UW fans will travel, but I sincerely doubt any/many Chi folk would be interested in going to a College Hockey tournament they have no vested interest in.
 
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