Atlantic Hockey Summer News

[LtPowers]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Not to derail, but should someone start our reg season and pick threads soon?

I was going to, but at the time I was still hoping this discussion could bear some non-vitrolic fruit. Given the actual outcome, I think I'll go do that now. =)

http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?p=4872501


Powers &8^]

 

[schiegs]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

It is obvious that the process set up currently is designed with priorities other than fairness.

Yep....cost containment.

If that is the case, they should fold their tents.

Yet again, before having played a single minute in conference, Niagara fans opining about who should leave the conference they just joined.

Yeah ... totally unreasonable to think the traditional bottom feeders of the league might have seen this as a way to balance out their participation in the tournament, to get their teams deeper into it. Probably never crossed their minds that they would end up last yet still get a chance to advance.

Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion other than idle speculation?

 

[5hole]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Yep....cost containment.

In that case, to avoid any east-west travel possibilities and contain even more costs, they might as well have divisions and continue divisional play into the finals.

Yet again, before having played a single minute in conference, Niagara fans opining about who should leave the conference they just joined.

Yeah, well, I am not speaking for other Niagara fans so make that singular. So I should wait until after we play our first minute in the conference to comment that certain teams have crappy facilities and attendance? (Note: That does not mean that I think ours is the greatest but by comparison to about half the AHA, both Dwyer and our attendance are pretty decent.)

Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion other than idle speculation?

Schiegs, this is not a court of law. What's your "evidence" that it is truly cost containment driving their motives? Because they said so ... as if they would come out and say what their underlying motives were? Spare me the naivete!

Listen, I've already said it is what it is for now. I've made my point as much as I can. Let's get on with the season.

 

[BC/HE]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I still have my doubts that the playoff format will have the pods play in the first round. After all the league website has the dates included with the other format that goes with a 1-12 ranking. Can anyone truly say that it is changed or not or is it just speculation because of two writers?

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I don't care what they say, that system is ridiculous.

This. The league is in danger of becoming a laughingstock. "Atlantic" Hockey needs to cut its ties to Boston.

It's a little wonky, yes, because the assumption thus far for this season is that the clearly delineated "West" group will all be better on the ice than the "East" group. I would not expect this to continue from year to year, or even guarantee it to hold true as 2010-11 progresses.

It's been true for the entire history of the conference, dating back to the MAAC. Holy Cross is the only "eastern" team to make the NCAA's. Air Force, RIT, Mercyhurst and Niagara have conference appearances in the "west." Why do you think the Big Ten decided NOT to split geographically? Will Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State continue to have good football programs, while Minnesota, Northwestern and Illinois continue to struggle?

It is obvious that the process set up currently is designed with priorities other than fairness.

Ding ding ding!

Yet again, before having played a single minute in conference, Niagara fans opining about who should leave the conference they just joined.

We've been here four years and I agree with them. Does that mean we get a vote yet?

Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion other than idle speculation?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just that the Beantown crowd is pretty good at covering their tracks.

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Simple solution. Have THREE (or even FOUR divisions,) and call them that.

Give the division winners (and one "wild card," if three divisions) the bye and seed everyone else by standings. With the preseason poll, you'd have:

Three Divisions [28 games: 12 games (2 series each) in the division, 16 (1 series each) vs. the rest]
East
Bentley
Holy Cross
AIC
UConn

Central
Sacred Heart
Army
RIT
Canisius

West
Niagara
Mercyhurst
Robert Morris
Air Force

Tournament:
Bye: Holy Cross, RIT, Mercyhurst, Air Force
First Round: AIC @ Niagara, UConn @ Robert Morris, Bentley @ Canisius, Army @ Sacred Heart.
Second Round: Chance for all 8 top teams to advance.

Four Divisions [26 games: 8 games (2 series) vs. division, 18 games (1 series) vs. rest]
Northeast
Bentley
Holy Cross
AIC

East
UConn
Sacred Heart
Army

Midwest
RIT
Canisius
Niagara

West
Mercyhurst
Robert Morris
Air Force

Tournament:
Bye: Holy Cross, Sacred Heart, RIT, Mercyhurst
First Round: AIC @ Air Force, UConn @ Niagara, Bentley @ Robert Morris, Army @ Canisius.
Second Round: Again, chance for all 8 top teams to advance.

 

[jflory81]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

My big problem with the playoff system isn't neccessarily that a lesser team will get a first round bye while a potentially "better" team has to play; it's that the play-in round is a single game vs. the best of 3 in the next round.

It would be a lot more palatable if two potentially top-half conference teams weren't subjected to a single elimination game in the first round, because as others said, you're going to have to beat good teams in the playoffs eventually, and in this scenario the top-half teams would be all but guarenteed to play a lesser 2nd round opponent at home from the other conference.

 

[kingdobbs]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

It's been true for the entire history of the conference, dating back to the MAAC. Holy Cross is the only "eastern" team to make the NCAA's. Air Force, RIT, Mercyhurst and Niagara have conference appearances in the "west."

A) Your premise is already faulty, as Quinnipiac has also made the NCAAs from league. And had there been an automatic bid in 1999-2000, UConn would have also made it. Of league tournament champions, 5 have been from the East (3 Holy Cross, 1 Quinnipiac, 1 UConn), and 7 from the West (3 Air Force, 3 Mercyhurst, 1 RIT). Hardly a picture of dominance. And if we look at regular season champions, the two "regions" had an even split: 6 to the East (3 Quinnipiac, 2 Holy Cross, 1 Army), 6 to the West (3 Mercyhurst, 2 RIT, and 1 where Air Force and RIT tied).
B) There has never been an AHA or MAAC season in which each "Eastern" team was entirely below each "Western" team in the standings. 2008-09 was the closest we have come to seeing this, with Bentley finishing 4th over 5th place Canisius, behind RIT, Air Force and Mercyhurst.
C) Tournament appearances is a weak criterion, as AHA/MAAC has never had a team appear as an at-large while in league competition (though teams have come close in two separate years, one which forced a rule change to the TUC criteria, and of course, Niagara had their one 'cinderella' year as an at-large from a non-autobid league).

 

[Snively65]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

But are you seriously going to argue that there are not certain AHA programs that are historically subpar in their on-ice performance, in their facilities and in their attendance?

Lucky that you do not need to travel to Watertown (Mass.) this season.

 

[CornwallAce]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I'm in New York where RPI and Union College get good press, but if you go to the internet and try to find AIC hockey coverage, it is almost nil. UMASS gets almost all the college coverage in the Springfield newspaper. UMASS is about 30 minutes from Springfield. The only chance for this to change may be for the AHL team to leave Springfield(which there is talk of, if a local owner can not be found) and the downtown rink begs AIC to play downtown. AIC is a D2 school, and in Springfield, there are soo many options of things to do, and places to go.
The school could give a higher priority to hockey, but they don't. No use crying over milk that hasn't even came out of the bottle.
At least they kept hockey, which is better than the half dozen teams which have got rid of hockey recently.
btw - I'm not complaining about Niagara being in the league. Gives me another opportunity to pick up some Johnny Ryan soda and stop at the Lake Effect Diner.

Final comment about playoffs alignment - If you seriously don't like it, I do hope you(a generic you) have sent the AHA office a message letting them know your displeasure. We have no power on here, and many of us just are not concerned. When you throw in the human element, many things can happen. At least it is no where near as bad of an injustice as the lack of playoffs in the top level of NCAA football.

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

A) Your premise is already faulty, as Quinnipiac has also made the NCAAs from league.

Quinnipiac is not a current member of Atlantic Hockey. I thought we were looking at current members. If you want to play that game, we can go back and look at Air Force, RIT and Niagara's records in the years before they joined and wonder how many more titles they would have.

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Final comment about playoffs alignment - If you seriously don't like it, I do hope you(a generic you) have sent the AHA office a message letting them know your displeasure. We have no power on here, and many of us just are not concerned. When you throw in the human element, many things can happen. At least it is no where near as bad of an injustice as the lack of playoffs in the top level of NCAA football.

Back in August, I sent them my thoughts on the absurdity of the three-game series, where teams in the west will travel to Colorado for a single game, and Air Force will travel all the way east for a single game. Still waiting on a response. If I thought it would do any good, I'd send it again.

Harvey Perlman (Nebraska President, runs the BCS) did at least respond to my email about why the Mountain West, with two teams in the Top 5, doesn't have an autobid, while the Big East, with no ranked teams, does, even if he did tell me to go jump off a cliff. I guess it's just another one of those entitlement programs to make sure noncompetitive eastern schools can play in the postseason.

 

[eagle70]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

It must be clear to all that the tourney format is biased; while cost-containment may be the opine du jour it is my sense that other factors may have had an influence. C’est la vie; I am not complaining, just reading the X-ray as I see it.

In any case it is what it is and I know all Niagara alums want only the best for our team and for the endowment of the conference. If needed and as conditions warrant it is reasonable to expect adjustments to be made for a more equitable format.

2008 NCAA Tournament
2004 NCAA Tournament
2000 NCAA Tournament
2008 CHA Champ!
2007 CHA RS Champs
2006 CHA RS Champs
2004 CHA Champs!

 

[kingdobbs]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Quinnipiac is not a current member of Atlantic Hockey. I thought we were looking at current members. If you want to play that game, we can go back and look at Air Force, RIT and Niagara's records in the years before they joined and wonder how many more titles they would have.

Your words: "It has been true for the entire history of the conference, dating back to the MAAC."

By any reasonable reading of that statement, Quinnipiac's membership should be included. Otherwise you're pretty much ignoring relevant data that fails to support your conclusion.

 

[le]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I wonder why the other western pod schools failed to object to this unfair arrangement ? So in essence, the western teams beat the **** out of each other during the season, then get screwed again in the playoffs. First, the weaker eastern teams fail to buck up for scholarships and on campus venues but they expect preferential treatment in the AHA Tourney ? Unbelievable…….

LE - Niagara

 

[schiegs]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

What's your "evidence" that it is truly cost containment driving their motives?

I have seen two league ADs being quoted as such.

Please don't make me go look it up for you.

 

[5hole]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I have seen two league ADs being quoted as such.

Please don't make me go look it up for you.

Don't bother ... you probably think the jobs situation is improving just because Obama says it is. What these AD's are saying is not necessarily the real reason. Facade ... smokescreen ... whatever you want to call it.

This is what I wrote on a Niagara talk site last nite to explain the situation:
... to re-arrange the conference priorities for the Tournament from (ostensibly) "cost containment" to a more fair model. I say ostensibly because I think the cost containment reason for setting things up as they are now is just a smokescreen. More likely, the East teams do not want to get shown up by lack of representation in the tournament. Thus, we have a tournament that is patently unfair and, more importantly, could end up with some of the worst teams in it.

By staying in pod for the play-in, you end up with four teams from the East and four from the West for that all-important best-of-3 quarterfinals. What could happen, if you use the coaches' poll to seed, is play-in games with 9 v 12 and 10 v 11. Now consider that in "one game, anything can happen" ... like upsets. But really, how much of an upset is it to have the 11 and 12 teams advance out of that scenario? Minor. Now, if the play-in round did not stay "in pod" then you would have 3 v 12 and 4 v 11 (again, assuming the coaches' poll results). Much less likely for upsets there.

Bottom line, who wants a tournament that is set up for the worst teams to advance?



BTW to Cornwall Ace - I agree, fans should express their thoughts on this to those that actually have input and/or a vote. That is exactly what I had already done on Monday in an email to the Niagara AD (and I did get a very satisfactory response ). I prefer to work primarily through my own school's AD; however, I think your suggestion is a good one and I will contact the AHA office as well. Thanks.

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I prefer to work primarily through my own school's AD; however, I think your suggestion is a good one and I will contact the AHA office as well. Thanks.

Let me know if you get a response.

Between the inequitable scheduling format, and completely biased tournament format, I think we're already edging towards the day when the six western teams will spin off a new conference with a strong geographic base in western New York and maybe even a few more scholarships. If the BTHC is going to have an autobid with six teams, there's no reason for the 12 AHA schools to fight it out for one. You can have two conferences, one that will provide homes for schools that want to be comptetitive and and one for those that want to contain costs.

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Your words: "It has been true for the entire history of the conference, dating back to the MAAC."

By any reasonable reading of that statement, Quinnipiac's membership should be included. Otherwise you're pretty much ignoring relevant data that fails to support your conclusion.

My "conclusion"is that for the entire history of the conference, including the MAAC, the current members of the eastern pod, with the exception of Holy Cross, have been dogs. They have the fewest on-campus arenas (3), lowest attendance (bottom three in the country) and least committment to improving their programs. Sure, they might turn the corner, but the current scheduling and tournament formats give them no incentive to do so.

 

[Spydey629]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Let me know if you get a response.

Between the inequitable scheduling format, and completely biased tournament format, I think we're already edging towards the day when the six western teams will spin off a new conference with a strong geographic base in western New York and maybe even a few more scholarships. If the BTHC is going to have an autobid with six teams, there's no reason for the 12 AHA schools to fight it out for one. You can have two conferences, one that will provide homes for schools that want to be comptetitive and and one for those that want to contain costs.

IMHO, the West Pod will become part of the "new" CCHA once the Big Ten comes online. There's a seismic shift coming, and I would be surprised to see 4 or 5 teams jump to a reshaped CCHA. (I can't say 6, because I don't AFA leaving Army).

And as far as the Conference Tournament goes, this set-up is just confusing. I pity the SIDs who have to explain this to the general masses...

"We finished third in the standings, but because we were also third in our 'scheduling pod' we will now be hosting a one-game play-in round. The 1,2, 4, and 5 seeds will have byes for the Opening Round"

Yeah... that makes TOTAL sense....