Atlantic Hockey Summer News

[Jim]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I agree there will not likely be a divisional split in the standings. But when playoff seedings, the rumors are that it's possible that the league could decide the 2nd best east team gets a bye in the first round even if they are 5th or 6th in the standings. This is something that has been floated as a possibility. I also think that would be unfair if they do so.

I also recognize the necessity of as many league games as there are. Most AHA teams can't get home non-conference games. I think the implementation of the current scheduling arrangement could have been better (assuming the league makes up the schedule).

As far as divisional vs league rankings, this kind of stuff happens all the time in sports. Shoot, in the NFL every year some team gets into the playoffs by winning its division at 8-8 while a few teams that finish with 10 or 11 wins stay home, or end up playing on the road. that is just the way it goes sometimes. And over time it evens out. There will be years when the East is the better division. Bentley builds an arena (which they are looking at once the economy turns), UCONN gets a couple of scholarships and or a head coach, Holy Cross returns to form...things like that can change the dynamic drastically.

Oh, and you were factually wrong on the AHA's NCAA performance. There were a number of close games, and I have no idea where you got the idea that no AHA team got closer than 3 goals. Yes, Holy Cross's win was the first by an AHA team, but Mercyhurst, with the AHA's (then still the MAAC) first ever bid in 2001, took the #1 seed, Michigan I think, to the limit before losing on a late goal 4-3. In 2005 Mercyhurst lost to BC 5-4. The following year, Holy Cross upset top seed Minnesota. There have been occassional clunkers in the Tourney but that has happened to everyone. the problem is that when you are a one bid league, the clunkers get magnified. There have also been some close exciting games.

 

[mar7967]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

What I think is an issue is what is rumored to be how the playoffs will work - that the East teams will play down to two and the West teams will play down to two teams so that the AHA tournament will have 2 east and 2 west teams. Granted, I don't believe that has been announced, but the speculation is there.

I would be surprised if there are 2 east teams in the top 4, even with the scheduling. Certainly there will be one (most likely Sacred Heart). I can accept the way the regular season is scheduled - even though implementation could be better - too many 1 game weekends where it is feasable to cut that down more. It also allows for more non-conference games, which for the teams that have a chance to win the tournament, could help boost their SOS.

From RIT's schedule News Release: http://www.ritathletics.com/news/2010/7/12/MHOCKEY_0712101836.aspx

The Atlantic Hockey Association playoffs begin with four first round games for the fifth through twelfth place finishers on March 5. The top four teams get a first round bye. Quarterfinal action will be held at the top-four sites from March 11-13. The Atlantic Hockey Association Tournament Semifinals and Championship will be held on March 18-19 at the Blue Cross Arena for the fifth straight season.

 

[d4rksabre]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

You can continue to try and put words in my mouth if you want, but it just shows your not getting the point. No one is arguing in favor of stagnation. I'm just arguing the reality of the situation. Not pie-in-the-sky ideals, fantasy or "I think it should be this way." Sorry, but these are the facts.

If you want college hockey to grow, you need an avenue for all comers; those that want to pour millions into their programs, and those that want to play the game but don't have millions to spend.

You are right, if the teams that join the AHA outgrow it, something WILL have to give. They can leave. The NCAA does not force AFA, RIT or anyone to stay in this conference. They can leave anytime they wish. No one is holding them back. (That was a particularly inane comment considering most of these teams just joined voluntarily.)They could all get together and form a conference that allows maximum scholarships, and show more affiliation to spending money on their program. They would just have to think of a name for it.... I think College Hockey America is available.

You seem to miss the point that this structure of cost containment exists in every other sport. This is just the first conference to apply the idea in hockey.

You still haven't answered my question. Again...... why did AFA/RIT/Niagra/RMU join a cost containment league dominated by programs that demonstrate they are not going to pour millions in anytime soon (this was not a secret)? Why didn't they stay in the CHA?

Because the question you're asking is also inane (see I can use it too!), as others have already pointed out. Every program has to start somewhere, and the AHA was a good fit and has now attracted two new programs that make the league better. The better question is why wouldn't the AHA want that?

Cost containment exists in other sports because those sports are much more widely played than hockey. College hockey isn't close to being on the level that college football or basketball is. Those sports can maintain containment leagues because there are dozens of schools willing to stockpile them with teams. That same idea doesn't work for college hockey. There simply aren't enough willing participants to keep a fully stocked containment league that is also successful, which is the decision the league needs to make.

Do you think AHA wants RIT, NU, Rob Mo, and Air Force to leave? Heck no. AHA is finally making a name for itself despite being a "cost containment" league and I highly doubt that if RIT and co. continue to grow that the AHA will simply ask them to leave. For the AHA, the best business for them is to become a league that outgrows its "cost containment" heritage. All of the current powerhouse leagues in NCAA hockey had to start somewhere, no doubt at a lower level than they currently stand. Is it crazy to think the AHA would like to follow in those footsteps? I don't think so.

 

[Jim]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Neither RIT nor Air Force offer ANY athletic scholarships.


You've mentioned the cost containment concept a few times (ok, a buttload of times). I think we all understand the concept. But there is a difference between "cost containment" and "cost elimination". D-I programs should at least TRY. I, for one was kind of concerned about a perennial D-III contender switching to this Mickey Mouse conference ("Mickey Mouse" not because of cost containment or any schools, but because of who is in charge and the decisions they make) just for the sake of "being D-I". But as was stated by Lt. Powers, we as fans have nothing to do with these decisions. Ever since the conference formed as the MAAC, I had my doubts about it. Just the fact that Niagara was already a MAAC school and refused to be a part of the conference in hockey gave me a clue as to it's quality.


Millions??? I'm not in on RIT's budget or anything, but the general impression I get is that they don't exactly spend (or even have) all that many "Millions". They are in no means anywhere near spending what a Minnesota or Wisconsin do. But they do get the most of what they have and make an effort to recruit, maintain facilities, maintain exposure in the local community, etc., etc...
And although someone already set you straight on this, I'll re-iterate... RIT was never in the CHA. Niagara and RMU did not leave the CHA, they were forced out because it was folding.
And all your references to teams joining the CHA instead of AHA are a bunch of crap anyhow. The CHA was never designed to be a permanent conference in the first place. It was set up as a scheduling alliance for a few Independent programs so they'd have something to play for until some of them could find permanent homes in actual conferences. To their consternation, none of those teams were actually able to land in any permanent homes, so the CHA stayed around, got and auto-bid, and eventually started acting like a conference. My guess is that RIT had no interest in jumping into a geographic nightmare of a conference that was pretty much unsustainable long term.

RIT, its true, was never in the CHA. they came to the AHA, I supect, for both competetive and stability reasons. Adn for a league that everyone loves to dump on, oddly enough especially the new members, the AHA has had pretty remarkable staying power, indeed it has grown. I'm not sure what Air Force's motivation was for leaving the CHA, but I have to think that it was a heck of a lot more than just playing Army. RMU, I believe had originally intended to play AHA hockey, but was enticed/encouraged to join the CHA in one of the many attempts to rescue that league from oblivion. As far as Niagara, I never quite got what their issue wasz other than they somehow convinced themaelves that they were a potential Boston College of the North. I always thought they were a perfect fit for the AHA and they'd probably have made the NCAA tourney jsut as often, and had comparable success as an AHA member. Tehy had a built in rivalry with Canisius, and one with Mercyhurst which they ignored to spend more money in a league that gave them minimal if any additonal prestige. Playing in the CHA they had neither the facilities nor the prestige to move up to a "better" league.

 

[AFHockeyFan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I'm not sure what Air Force's motivation was for leaving the CHA, but I have to think that it was a heck of a lot more than just playing Army.

Mostly it was the writing on the wall with the CHA. Wayne State had announced they were folding, dropping the league to five teams. UAH looked a lot less stable than they do now. A four-team conference simply wasn't viable. And Army actually opposed Air Force's move to the CHA (Smart move on their part, considering the 2007 Championship Game), and stipulated that we would only play only one two-game series per season (except last year, when we met again in the playoffs).

The CHA didn't work because it had teams in three time zones and most were either looking to move up (Bemidji) or were folding (Findlay, Wayne).

 

[komey1]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Good to see based on the RIT schedule that the integraty (sp?) of the standings will be kept come playoff time.

 

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Does anyone know if the first round for seeds 5-12 will be single games or best of three?

I like the fact that the standings don't appear to be divided, the best four will be there in the end regardless of what schedule pod they came from. I dreaded the concept of having 2 mandatory conference final four spots for each pod.

 

[schiegs]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

For the AHA, the best business for them is to become a league that outgrows its "cost containment" heritage. All of the current powerhouse leagues in NCAA hockey had to start somewhere, no doubt at a lower level than they currently stand. Is it crazy to think the AHA would like to follow in those footsteps? I don't think so.

What the league is and what the league may/will become are two different topics.

To this point, my beef has been with (the fans of) newcomers to the league demanding it change. That flies in the face of reason. "Now that I've moved into the neighborhood, it's time to start b!+ching about the neighbors." I'm not a fan of the result of cost containment myself, trust me. But I undertand the value of it, especially in today's economy.

If you beleive that some sort of "mandate" or philosophy of minimum committment is in order, what should that level be? Just about where your institution happens to be? How convenient. Sounds great until the schools above you in the national pecking order make the same demands on you. How would you respond to a philosophy that defined "true" committment as "Minimum 10,000 seat arena and minimum 8,000 average attendnece"? Not as out-there as you may intially think, as that is the driving philosophy the between D-1 FBS and FCS split. The big schools didn't want to be associated with the medium schools.

Someone earlier mentioned that a league is only as good as the bottom teams. Couldn't agree more. The choice is whether to foster that growth with a carrot or a stick. AIC, Bentley, SHU, and others in the league have improved over time. It doesn't show up in the standings as the enitre league has grown with them.

This league is growing. These programs have increased their committment, they have added scholarships, scheduling improvements, facility upgrades (you think the JAR is bad now, you should have seen it 10 years ago), etc. all before the recent additions. It may not be to everyone's (fans) desired pace, but it is at a pace that allows the instituions (and therefore college hockey) to grow at a digestable pace. Forcing growth faster than a school's ability results in loss of programs. I don't have the numbers handy, but it seems college hockey has lost more teams due to inability to justify costs (Fairfield, Iona, WSU, Findlay etc.), than schools that have "stepped up" their committment level. At that pace, your institutions will eventually be the bottom of the barrel, and you will have to justify your existence to the Michigan's of the world.

 

[Jim]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Just as an aside, I haven't seen or read anything from any AHA fan who either objects to the league improving, or objects to the addition of Niagara, RIT, AirForce, or Robert Morris. In fact, the comments have been uniformly positive. That said though, you'd think all these programs were coming from the Big Ten or something to read the "demands" of some of their fans. Shoot, the AHA is pretty much comparable on the hockey side with every other sports league that Robert Morris compete's in. The winner of its basketball conference gets a bid to the NCAAs, unless its an upset winner of their league tourney. Then they get a "semi-bid" by being allowed to play in the play-in game. Niagara plays in the MAAC. On very very rare occassions, a MAAC school gets an at large hoop bid, but it hasn't happened in a while. That is the situation here. The AHA champ gets a bid. On a rare occassion, if the stars alighn, maybe a 2nd team lands one. Look, RIT had a great experience last year. It was terrific to see them get all the way to the Frozen Four. As far as cost containment and such, you all should get it...I mean the Gallegher Center is a fun place to watch a basketball game, but it's not Gampel Pavillion or Conte Forum. BC flies to its games in Orono. My hunch is Niagara will bus lots of places. In some ways just with the addition of more western teams, particularly Air Force, the AHA is already moving away from its original model. At its inception there were really only 2 "outliers" Mercy hurst and Canisius. the other league members were pretty well packed in a reasonalby tight area in Massachusetts, Connecticut and the new York metro area. Tha thas changed obviously, in recent years as a couple of programs in the metro area dropped out, Fairfield and Iona, and one, Quinnipiac, moved to the ECAC, and the replacements have been situated further west. But the eastern schools that the newcomers seem to distain are the ones who built the league while the western "powers" were out trying to compete on an equal footing with the CCHA and the HEA. In the end, though, one model seems to have worked, while the other didn't, and if we go by NCAA success, where one would have expected the full scholarship league to have much more success, we find that it was no better than equal.

 

[5hole]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

RIT, its true, was never in the CHA. they came to the AHA, I supect, for both competetive and stability reasons. Adn for a league that everyone loves to dump on, oddly enough especially the new members, the AHA has had pretty remarkable staying power, indeed it has grown. I'm not sure what Air Force's motivation was for leaving the CHA, but I have to think that it was a heck of a lot more than just playing Army. RMU, I believe had originally intended to play AHA hockey, but was enticed/encouraged to join the CHA in one of the many attempts to rescue that league from oblivion. As far as Niagara, I never quite got what their issue wasz other than they somehow convinced themaelves that they were a potential Boston College of the North. I always thought they were a perfect fit for the AHA and they'd probably have made the NCAA tourney jsut as often, and had comparable success as an AHA member. Tehy had a built in rivalry with Canisius, and one with Mercyhurst which they ignored to spend more money in a league that gave them minimal if any additonal prestige. Playing in the CHA they had neither the facilities nor the prestige to move up to a "better" league.

Jim, you just forced me to jump into this fray ...

Adn for a league that everyone loves to dump on, oddly enough especially the new members,

I'm not sure if you are referring to the ongoing discussion or perhaps recalling some of my posts from seasons past where I spoke rather unkindly (i.e., I dumped on the league pretty good) of the AHA's overall on-ice performance and attendance record, as well as many of its facilities, and their "cost containment" philosophy. And I would contend that whatever I said in the past was true and correct. Now I will say that the league has improved but has a long ways to go. It is the bottom feeders that need to get their collective acts together. I have talked with enough people to know that it is just depressing to send our team as a visitor into some of these shoddy community rinks to games with essentially no more than a handful of real fans at the games. Niagara and RoMo may not have the greatest facilities but they are a d*** site better than what several of the AHA teams have ... respectable, at the least. In sum, it is "the newcomers" that have raised this league to at least some level of respectability.

As far as Niagara, I never quite got what their issue wasz other than they somehow convinced themaelves that they were a potential Boston College of the North. I always thought they were a perfect fit for the AHA and they'd probably have made the NCAA tourney jsut as often, and had comparable success as an AHA member. Tehy had a built in rivalry with Canisius, and one with Mercyhurst which they ignored to spend more money in a league that gave them minimal if any additonal prestige. Playing in the CHA they had neither the facilities nor the prestige to move up to a "better" league.

The problem with your whole line of thought here is that you "never quite got" that the mindset of Niagara's coach is to be able to take his team into the best venues, as they have historically done, to play against top-flight competition - with a realistic chance to win. That means playing with a full scholie team, thus hardly a perfect fit for AHA (not that we were a perfect fit in CHA either- no team was in that league). The unfortunate aspect of our situation was that there simply was no "better" league alternative available to us. At least CHA offered us a league where the core teams generally had similar objectives (Bemidji State and UAH - admittedly, RoMo always had a preference for AHA competition level though I think Schooley has scheduled some tough competition). When Bemidji finally gained WCHA admittance, we had two options: AHA or indy. And there was a strong level of support among fans AND from some involved with the program to try the indy route, as UAH is doing this season.

My mindset these days is that Niagara is now a full-fledged member of AHA. The league accepted us that way and we have every right to our input. It seems to me that it only makes sense that we should want this league to improve, to become more competitive both on-ice and in regard to attendance and facilities. And if more of the membership agrees with that approach and votes that way (e.g., increased scholies), then that is the way the league will evolve, regardless of how other schools may feel about it. Perhaps that is how this league will find a way to continue to gain some prestige- as it has through its recent performances, thanks mostly to the "new" members.

****

BTW, before your comments on Niagara prompted me to respond, I was planning on posting a little bit of hockey news ...
- Just announced, among those skating at the New Jersey Devils prospect camp will be two Niagara players, senior Bryan "Hacker" Haczyk (RW) and incoming freshman Scott Arnold (LW).
- One of last season's Niagara captains, Ryan Annesley (D), has been cleared for a redshirt season. He missed virtually all of last season with an injury- great to have Ryan back!

 

[schiegs]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Quinnipiac, moved to the ECAC,

A perfect example of an istitution that walked-the-walk with regards to "increasing committment." They left for a league that better fitted them, quite amenably (sp?) and with respect. I have yet to hear a single AHA fan speak of their decision desparigingly, or vice versa (except for the whole mascot change thing.)

BTW, when AFA joined AHA, I specifically remember a comment by Seratone (sp?) in the press that one of the driving reasons was that it gave them the opportunity to immediately compete for a NCAA berth. (Translation: the competition is weaker.) Why would that same instition support efforts to make other league members more competive (via increased scholarship limits)? That's why they left (along with other reasons no doubt) their last conference home.

 

[beaverhockeyfan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

When Bemidji finally gained WCHA admittance, we had two options: AHA or indy. And there was a strong level of support among fans AND from some involved with the program to try the indy route, as UAH is doing this season.

Actually 5-hole, Niagara was admitted into the AHA before Bemidji was approved for the WCHA.

schiegs also has hit the nail on the head with Air Force. The Falcons were almost always a bottom two team in the CHA, but as soon as they come over to the AHA, there they are near the top of the standings.

 

[TigerFan86-87]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

That said though, you'd think all these programs were coming from the Big Ten or something to read the "demands" of some of their fans.

Boy, you guys are very sensitive and read way too much into things. No one was making any "demands". And even if we were, who gives a rats a** what any of us thinks. We don't make any decisions and those that do don't care what we think. I personnally would just prefer that the programs in D-I hockey actually give a crap about themselves, not that they all try to be Michigan or BC. There are plenty of "small schools", or non-D-I power schools, who have been competing in D-I hockey quite well for a long time, which is part of the charm of the sport we all love. The fact that a school like Ferris State can compete on an even footing with a school like Michigan is fantastic and doesn't happen in too many big time college sports. It's just disappointing when other such programs don't seem to even attempt to become competitive.

 

[schiegs]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Let the flailing, unsupported Eastern programs figure out what they want to do with themselves on their own.

So we can add this to the list of comments that don't amount to a rat's *****. Good to know.

 

[5hole]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Actually 5-hole, Niagara was admitted into the AHA before Bemidji was approved for the WCHA.

schiegs also has hit the nail on the head with Air Force. The Falcons were almost always a bottom two team in the CHA, but as soon as they come over to the AHA, there they are near the top of the standings.

Oh, thanks for making me look bad, Millsy. OK, yes, you are right on that.

However,without doing any research, I'll take an (educated? - or wild-arsed?) guess then that it was sometime after Bemidji announced that they would drop D1 hockey if not admitted to WCHA. In other words, the demise of the CHA was already set in motion by BSU leaving one way or another, right?

 

[beaverhockeyfan]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Oh, thanks for making me look bad, Millsy. OK, yes, you are right on that.

However,without doing any research, I'll take an (educated? - or wild-arsed?) guess then that it was sometime after Bemidji announced that they would drop D1 hockey if not admitted to WCHA. In other words, the demise of the CHA was already set in motion by BSU leaving one way or another, right?

Alright I will give you that one. Heck, I think even Wayne State was even still around with President Quistgaard made that ultimatum.

 

[Spydey629]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Does anyone know if the first round for seeds 5-12 will be single games or best of three?

I like the fact that the standings don't appear to be divided, the best four will be there in the end regardless of what schedule pod they came from. I dreaded the concept of having 2 mandatory conference final four spots for each pod.

It's a one-off.

 

[Spydey629]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Jim, you just forced me to jump into this fray ...

I'm not sure if you are referring to the ongoing discussion or perhaps recalling some of my posts from seasons past where I spoke rather unkindly (i.e., I dumped on the league pretty good) of the AHA's overall on-ice performance and attendance record, as well as many of its facilities, and their "cost containment" philosophy. And I would contend that whatever I said in the past was true and correct. Now I will say that the league has improved but has a long ways to go. It is the bottom feeders that need to get their collective acts together. I have talked with enough people to know that it is just depressing to send our team as a visitor into some of these shoddy community rinks to games with essentially no more than a handful of real fans at the games. Niagara and RoMo may not have the greatest facilities but they are a d*** site better than what several of the AHA teams have ... respectable, at the least. In sum, it is "the newcomers" that have raised this league to at least some level of respectability.

The problem with your whole line of thought here is that you "never quite got" that the mindset of Niagara's coach is to be able to take his team into the best venues, as they have historically done, to play against top-flight competition - with a realistic chance to win. That means playing with a full scholie team, thus hardly a perfect fit for AHA (not that we were a perfect fit in CHA either- no team was in that league). The unfortunate aspect of our situation was that there simply was no "better" league alternative available to us. At least CHA offered us a league where the core teams generally had similar objectives (Bemidji State and UAH - admittedly, RoMo always had a preference for AHA competition level though I think Schooley has scheduled some tough competition). When Bemidji finally gained WCHA admittance, we had two options: AHA or indy. And there was a strong level of support among fans AND from some involved with the program to try the indy route, as UAH is doing this season.

My mindset these days is that Niagara is now a full-fledged member of AHA. The league accepted us that way and we have every right to our input. It seems to me that it only makes sense that we should want this league to improve, to become more competitive both on-ice and in regard to attendance and facilities. And if more of the membership agrees with that approach and votes that way (e.g., increased scholies), then that is the way the league will evolve, regardless of how other schools may feel about it. Perhaps that is how this league will find a way to continue to gain some prestige- as it has through its recent performances, thanks mostly to the "new" members.

You beat me to the bunch 5-hole. I've been "lurking" for a while on here, not sure when to open my big mouth.

Ditto on pretty much everything.

I will add though, that the CHA would still be here, if the AHA would have let it:

With Wayne State losing money (And what in Detroit/Michigan isn't?), the league was on its last legs. We all know the rumors... Mercyhurst and Canisius were ready willing to come over to the CHA and give us back our six team league, which all of the sudden was Great Lakes based, with a couple outliers. AHA would've been 8 teams, and all would've been great with the world.

Except that 'Hurst and the Griffs wanted an insurance policy, so to speak, that if the CHA still blew up (we'll never know now) they would be welcomed back with open arms... a promise that would never be made.

I can't say what I would've preferred, because at this point, I don't know.

 

[RITProf]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Except that 'Hurst and the Griffs wanted an insurance policy, so to speak, that if the CHA still blew up (we'll never know now) they would be welcomed back with open arms... a promise that would never be made.

Yeah, and I'm running off with a 22-year-old Swedish swimsuit model. My wife said it's fine and she'll welcome me back with open arms when I get dumped.

 

[komey1]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Actually 5-hole, Niagara was admitted into the AHA before Bemidji was approved for the WCHA.

schiegs also has hit the nail on the head with Air Force. The Falcons were almost always a bottom two team in the CHA, but as soon as they come over to the AHA, there they are near the top of the standings.

In Air Force's first year in the AHA, they were 5th in the standings and the #4 seed in the AHA tournament. In fact, they have only won the regular season title just once - shared with RIT. I think part of it was a perfect storm for them - weaker league along with a great recruiting class that included Fairchild, Ehn, Flynn, and Volkening.