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Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I guess I just don't understand the "cost containment" argument. Help me out.

Try this:

1.) We are a D-1 institution who wants to offer our student athletes the ability to play varsity hockey while attending this school. It is our intent to provide as many athletic opportunities as is economically feasible. However, given the fact that our resources aren't infinite, we need to place some/all sports in an environment that allows them to compete with an eye towards keeping costs under a certain level. Otherwise, we can't offer those opportunities at all. Some will offer a club level program, others a varsity program in a cost-contained environment.

2.) We are a D-2 institution that has two options for hockey. Either we can ask our athletes to compete in a division that does not offer any sort of championship opportunity, or we can find an avenue within D-1 that does provide that opportunity. See above argument for the rest....

See, I was able to do that without flame-throwing. You should try it. Its not a case of some "good accounting" to make it work. Its quite a bit more involved than that. Every institution has finite resources with which to work. Some chose 5,000 seat arenas and fully funded scholarships to the maximum level, often times by limiting the number of sports available to student athletes. (Bentley offers more student athletes the opportunity to play sports than most BCS schools.) Others choose different, equally (more?) legitimate institutional endeavors. Those that choose the latter banded together to provide an opportunity to put forth hockey at the level they saw fit. If you don't like it, I ask you and others one more time (to which I still haven't gotten an answer)...

If you are so disappointed with the hockey program put forth by most of the AHA institutions, why did your institution decide to join? There was another conference that had schools putting more funding into their programs like you cry about, begging for your institutions to stay, and they instead decided to leave that for the cost containment league. Fully one-third of the AHA is now made up of teams that left a league with "more commitment" to competitive hockey. Perhaps it has been proven that the AHA model is much more sustainable than what you seem to want.

No one is "satisfied" with being a perennially weak program, but many of us have the ability to keep perspective and have the understanding of why it is that way. In the mean time, we will continue to root for our teams, give what we can ourselves to increase resources, enjoy the upsets when they happen, and dream that maybe someday, just maybe, we can go on the hottest of hot streaks at just the right time of the season.
 
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Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Only because they won the conference tournament. A loss, even in the championship game, would have tumbled them out of the Top 16. They were 19th going into the conference tournaments:
http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/2009/03/pair-wise-predictor-is-up.html
Trust me. I remember running the predictors. The only way they made the field was to win the tournament.

Yeah, and had they flipped their worst non-conference loss (to Quinnipiac in the UConn tournament), they would've been in even losing in the final.

The truth of the matter is non-conference performance will matter far more for positioning and gaining potential at-large bids than what the bottom half of your league schedule does. Your league is your league. I am fair sure that BC or UNH aren't saying that they want to start their own conference without Merrimack and Providence because those teams are dragging down their RPI.
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Also read the D2/D3 board.

If D2 hockey teams were allowed to play for the D3 title, it might have solved this problem. The last D2 team in the midwest got shafted and had to drop to club status. The 6 D2 teams in the northeast are about to get shafted again it would seem.

BTW - This whole argument is reminding me of the big city slicker who moves to the country and then complains how there are no city amenities.
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

What I think is an issue is what is rumored to be how the playoffs will work - that the East teams will play down to two and the West teams will play down to two teams so that the AHA tournament will have 2 east and 2 west teams. Granted, I don't believe that has been announced, but the speculation is there.

I would be surprised if there are 2 east teams in the top 4, even with the scheduling. Certainly there will be one (most likely Sacred Heart). I can accept the way the regular season is scheduled - even though implementation could be better - too many 1 game weekends where it is feasable to cut that down more. It also allows for more non-conference games, which for the teams that have a chance to win the tournament, could help boost their SOS.
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

What I think is an issue is what is rumored to be how the playoffs will work - that the East teams will play down to two and the West teams will play down to two teams so that the AHA tournament will have 2 east and 2 west teams. Granted, I don't believe that has been announced, but the speculation is there.

I would be surprised if there are 2 east teams in the top 4, even with the scheduling. Certainly there will be one (most likely Sacred Heart). I can accept the way the regular season is scheduled - even though implementation could be better - too many 1 game weekends where it is feasable to cut that down more. It also allows for more non-conference games, which for the teams that have a chance to win the tournament, could help boost their SOS.

I remain skeptical, barring an actual announcement from the league, that there will be an actual divisional split in the standings.

As regarding the schedule split, the big problem there is the home/away balance. We all know the scheduling difficulty regarding non-conference home games, which means that a larger number of conference games is practically necessary, and probably won't change for the near future.
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I am fair sure that BC or UNH aren't saying that they want to start their own conference without Merrimack and Providence because those teams are dragging down their RPI.

But, UNH probably would be happy if Merrimack left HE, given how much diffculty that Cats have had in North Andover the past few years. :D
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

If you are so disappointed with the hockey program put forth by most of the AHA institutions, why did your institution decide to join?

Well, first of all, it's important to point out that we, as fans, had no input, influence, or control over which league RIT joined.

However, I think when most of us heard "cost-containment league", we thought "Oh, good, a league where we aren't going to get severely out-scholarshipped." We were expecting a league where we were on more even footing because we wouldn't be competing against 18-scholie teams.

What, perhaps, many of us didn't realize is that several AHA teams fail to provide support for their teams in other ways as well.


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I remain skeptical, barring an actual announcement from the league, that there will be an actual divisional split in the standings.

As regarding the schedule split, the big problem there is the home/away balance. We all know the scheduling difficulty regarding non-conference home games, which means that a larger number of conference games is practically necessary, and probably won't change for the near future.

I agree there will not likely be a divisional split in the standings. But when playoff seedings, the rumors are that it's possible that the league could decide the 2nd best east team gets a bye in the first round even if they are 5th or 6th in the standings. This is something that has been floated as a possibility. I also think that would be unfair if they do so.

I also recognize the necessity of as many league games as there are. Most AHA teams can't get home non-conference games. I think the implementation of the current scheduling arrangement could have been better (assuming the league makes up the schedule).
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Well, first of all, it's important to point out that we, as fans, had no input, influence, or control over which league RIT joined.

However, I think when most of us heard "cost-containment league", we thought "Oh, good, a league where we aren't going to get severely out-scholarshipped." We were expecting a league where we were on more even footing because we wouldn't be competing against 18-scholie teams.

What, perhaps, many of us didn't realize is that several AHA teams fail to provide support for their teams in other ways as well.


Powers &8^]

And let's be fair - we cannot blame the fans here on USCHO - they support their teams. I'm sure many of you would love to see improvements made by your teams. But as for the schools themselves, who knows.
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I also recognize the necessity of as many league games as there are. Most AHA teams can't get home non-conference games. I think the implementation of the current scheduling arrangement could have been better (assuming the league makes up the schedule).

For sure, it'd be a hell of a lot easier if Air Force were, say, in Syracuse or something. ;)
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Try this:

1.) We are a D-1 institution who wants to offer our student athletes the ability to play varsity hockey while attending this school. It is our intent to provide as many athletic opportunities as is economically feasible. However, given the fact that our resources aren't infinite, we need to place some/all sports in an environment that allows them to compete with an eye towards keeping costs under a certain level. Otherwise, we can't offer those opportunities at all. Some will offer a club level program, others a varsity program in a cost-contained environment.

2.) We are a D-2 institution that has two options for hockey. Either we can ask our athletes to compete in a division that does not offer any sort of championship opportunity, or we can find an avenue within D-1 that does provide that opportunity. See above argument for the rest....

See, I was able to do that without flame-throwing. You should try it. Its not a case of some "good accounting" to make it work. Its quite a bit more involved than that. Every institution has finite resources with which to work. Some chose 5,000 seat arenas and fully funded scholarships to the maximum level, often times by limiting the number of sports available to student athletes. (Bentley offers more student athletes the opportunity to play sports than most BCS schools.) Others choose different, equally (more?) legitimate institutional endeavors. Those that choose the latter banded together to provide an opportunity to put forth hockey at the level they saw fit. If you don't like it, I ask you and others one more time (to which I still haven't gotten an answer)...

If you are so disappointed with the hockey program put forth by most of the AHA institutions, why did your institution decide to join? There was another conference that had schools putting more funding into their programs like you cry about, begging for your institutions to stay, and they instead decided to leave that for the cost containment league. Fully one-third of the AHA is now made up of teams that left a league with "more commitment" to competitive hockey. Perhaps it has been proven that the AHA model is much more sustainable than what you seem to want.

No one is "satisfied" with being a perennially weak program, but many of us have the ability to keep perspective and have the understanding of why it is that way. In the mean time, we will continue to root for our teams, give what we can ourselves to increase resources, enjoy the upsets when they happen, and dream that maybe someday, just maybe, we can go on the hottest of hot streaks at just the right time of the season.

I've never seen someone argue so adamantly in favor of the stagnation of progress. The AHA may have started as a "cost containment league" as you keep stating, but things evolve. As teams that joined the AHA outgrow it something will have to give. Either the NCAA restructures so that the teams that no longer wish to have cheaper programs can move to different conferences, or the AHA will have to adapt to keep its growing teams as members. Someone, somewhere, is going to get the short end of the stick. Either the AHA loses out, or the weaker teams within it lose out. Because it certainly doesn't make sense to hold growing teams back purely out of principle.
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

What I think is an issue is what is rumored to be how the playoffs will work - that the East teams will play down to two and the West teams will play down to two teams so that the AHA tournament will have 2 east and 2 west teams. Granted, I don't believe that has been announced, but the speculation is there.

If that happens, the West teams would be fully justified in forming a new CHA, only this time with close geographic proximity and stable programs. I wonder how much longer a Boston guy is going to run the league for the benefit of the Massachusetts programs. Surely there is someone from west of the Hudson who is capable, especially since the geographic center of the league has shifted far to the west (and is now somewhere around Coudersport, PA, by my calculations).

For sure, it'd be a hell of a lot easier if Air Force were, say, in Syracuse or something. ;)

The three finalists in the Academy site selection process were Alton, Ill., Lake Geneva, WI and Colorado Springs.

Either site would have shortened the commute considerably, but I wouldn't trade the MWC for the MAC.
 
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Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Well, first of all, it's important to point out that we, as fans, had no input, influence, or control over which league RIT joined.

However, I think when most of us heard "cost-containment league", we thought "Oh, good, a league where we aren't going to get severely out-scholarshipped." We were expecting a league where we were on more even footing because we wouldn't be competing against 18-scholie teams.

What, perhaps, many of us didn't realize is that several AHA teams fail to provide support for their teams in other ways as well.


Powers &8^]

"didn't realize" Sounds like the same reason we have so many divorces in this country...
 
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Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

This whole argument is reminding me of the big city slicker who moves to the country and then complains how there are no city amenities.

I see it more as buying a house in the nicest subdivision you can afford and wondering why some of your neighbors won't get rid of the car that's up on blocks in their front yard because it's "too expensive," not realizing that with just a little effort, everyone's property values would go up.
 
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Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I've never seen someone argue so adamantly in favor of the stagnation of progress. The AHA may have started as a "cost containment league" as you keep stating, but things evolve. As teams that joined the AHA outgrow it something will have to give. Either the NCAA restructures so that the teams that no longer wish to have cheaper programs can move to different conferences, or the AHA will have to adapt to keep its growing teams as members. Someone, somewhere, is going to get the short end of the stick. Either the AHA loses out, or the weaker teams within it lose out. Because it certainly doesn't make sense to hold growing teams back purely out of principle.

You can continue to try and put words in my mouth if you want, but it just shows your not getting the point. No one is arguing in favor of stagnation. I'm just arguing the reality of the situation. Not pie-in-the-sky ideals, fantasy or "I think it should be this way." Sorry, but these are the facts.

If you want college hockey to grow, you need an avenue for all comers; those that want to pour millions into their programs, and those that want to play the game but don't have millions to spend.

You are right, if the teams that join the AHA outgrow it, something WILL have to give. They can leave. The NCAA does not force AFA, RIT or anyone to stay in this conference. They can leave anytime they wish. No one is holding them back. (That was a particularly inane comment considering most of these teams just joined voluntarily.)They could all get together and form a conference that allows maximum scholarships, and show more affiliation to spending money on their program. They would just have to think of a name for it.... I think College Hockey America is available.

You seem to miss the point that this structure of cost containment exists in every other sport. This is just the first conference to apply the idea in hockey.

You still haven't answered my question. Again...... why did AFA/RIT/Niagra/RMU join a cost containment league dominated by programs that demonstrate they are not going to pour millions in anytime soon (this was not a secret)? Why didn't they stay in the CHA?
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

You still haven't answered my question. Again...... why did AFA/RIT/Niagra/RMU join a cost containment league dominated by programs that demonstrate they are not going to pour millions in anytime soon (this was not a secret)? Why didn't they stay in the CHA?

For starters, RIT was just moving up, and AHA was the fit for us at that time (and until the NCAA ends the moratorium for schools moving up to Div-I THEN RIT making the push to Div-I in all sports, AHA is still the best fit for RIT IMHO).

As for Niagara and RMU, they HAD to move or risk losing an AQ -- and in turn, the exposure the programs get from the NCAA Playoffs. Hell, UAH have been trying to get in an non-cost-containment league and they're still out there flailing in the murky waters. I believe as for AFA, they chose AHA over CHA for rivalry purposes with Army, but then I am not an AFA fan here.

I do not agree with the "west just picking up and leave AHA" talk, however. Is there anything wrong with just wanting our league to improve from bottom to top, and hoping against hope some of those schools' AD read those topics and realize the hockey program in their college might need more support?
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

I see it more as buying a house in the nicest subdivision you can afford and wondering why some of your neighbors won't get rid of the car that's up on blocks in their front yard because it's "too expensive," not realizing that with just a little effort, everyone's property values would go up.

Somehow, I can't imagine someone in a nice subdivision having a car on blocks. Whenever I hear the word subdivision, I think yuppie, elite (and boring, but that is neither here nor there) kind of like what you might call the top leagues.
Based upon this comment, I have to break it to you, the AHA is not meant to be an elite league. you have too grandiose plans for this league.
 
Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

Somehow, I can't imagine someone in a nice subdivision having a car on blocks.

You've never lived in the south.

Based upon this comment, I have to break it to you, the AHA is not meant to be an elite league. you have too grandiose plans for this league.

I don't think anyone on here ever expects the AHA to rival Hockey East or the WCHA. But it would be nice to take a few games from the CCHA and ECAC every once in a while, at least often enough to earn some respect and make those schools willing to schedule a home-and-home series with an AHA team.

We're not ever going to be a "BCS" conference. But I'd prefer that we were closer to the Mountain West than the Sun Belt.
 
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Re: Atlantic Hockey Summer News

They could all get together and form a conference that allows maximum scholarships, and show more affiliation to spending money on their program.
Neither RIT nor Air Force offer ANY athletic scholarships.

You seem to miss the point that this structure of cost containment exists in every other sport. This is just the first conference to apply the idea in hockey.
You've mentioned the cost containment concept a few times (ok, a buttload of times). I think we all understand the concept. But there is a difference between "cost containment" and "cost elimination". D-I programs should at least TRY. I, for one was kind of concerned about a perennial D-III contender switching to this Mickey Mouse conference ("Mickey Mouse" not because of cost containment or any schools, but because of who is in charge and the decisions they make) just for the sake of "being D-I". But as was stated by Lt. Powers, we as fans have nothing to do with these decisions. Ever since the conference formed as the MAAC, I had my doubts about it. Just the fact that Niagara was already a MAAC school and refused to be a part of the conference in hockey gave me a clue as to it's quality.

You still haven't answered my question. Again...... why did AFA/RIT/Niagra/RMU join a cost containment league dominated by programs that demonstrate they are not going to pour millions in anytime soon (this was not a secret)? Why didn't they stay in the CHA?
Millions??? I'm not in on RIT's budget or anything, but the general impression I get is that they don't exactly spend (or even have) all that many "Millions". They are in no means anywhere near spending what a Minnesota or Wisconsin do. But they do get the most of what they have and make an effort to recruit, maintain facilities, maintain exposure in the local community, etc., etc...
And although someone already set you straight on this, I'll re-iterate... RIT was never in the CHA. Niagara and RMU did not leave the CHA, they were forced out because it was folding.
And all your references to teams joining the CHA instead of AHA are a bunch of crap anyhow. The CHA was never designed to be a permanent conference in the first place. It was set up as a scheduling alliance for a few Independent programs so they'd have something to play for until some of them could find permanent homes in actual conferences. To their consternation, none of those teams were actually able to land in any permanent homes, so the CHA stayed around, got and auto-bid, and eventually started acting like a conference. My guess is that RIT had no interest in jumping into a geographic nightmare of a conference that was pretty much unsustainable long term.
 
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