Arizona State Moving To D1

[The Zlax45]

Lacrosse is not a "major" sport and Johns Hopkins is a totally unique situation in lacrosse in that they are THE power in the sport much like Everest is THE mountain.

The Big 10 needed a 6th team to even have a conference league in lacrosse, a sport in which I have seen zero speculation about any other Big 10 school adding.

We're having a hard enough time finding 2 schools to add hockey in the Big 10. Johns Hopkins was a means to an end in a "minor" sport that nobody else was or is even looking at. Different situation, entirely.

My post emphasized MAJOR sports. With apologies to lacrosse fan (and, I like lacrosse--it is a hockey variant) it is far down the ladder rung, even, from hockey. And, I readily acknowledge that there is probably an element of people reading this post, even here at USCHO, that would argue that even hockey isn't a "major" NCAA sport.

I think it is, though.

Actually, you are pretty far off here..lax is bigger than hockey in terms of more schools playing it and adding it yearly. Off the top of my head, Lowell, NJ Tech, Mercer, High Point, Furman, and Cleveland State have all added men's lacrosse in the last four years or start playing next year. I would expect Minnesota to start exploring too

Two schools have added hockey in ASU and Penn State.

 

[The Zlax45]

Except you're wrong in that the B1G accepted Johns Hopkins for lacrosse affiliation.

Vandy and Florida play womens lax in the Big East while Denver does in men's...I say the Big 10 is where ASU lands

 

[Humanoid]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Vandy and Florida play womens lax in the Big East while Denver does in men's...I say the Big 10 is where ASU lands

Here's the thing - Hockey is much different in terms of landscape than Lacrosse. And in terms of voting membership, there is no way Arizona State lands in the B1G because they won't have any voting rights. What you're saying is that a member institution of another Power 6 conference is willing to go to a league where they would have no rights to stand on except to be told what to do in hockey solely for the reason because the league is smaller and has larger named schools. At least that's the drift I'm getting.

The NCHC and the WCHA at least would grant them full member privileges; if they wants to go to B1G, they would have to go as a full member institution because that's dealing with large-money, large-scale politics. Hockey is much larger scale than lacrosse as a result.

As reference, members of Atlantic Hockey split from the MAAC 12 years ago because the only member of the MAAC that was left was Canisius (Niagara was not in the league at the time, they were in CHA). That meant Canisius was the only school with voting rights because nobody else was a member of the MAAC. They parted amicably, but it was a necessary move.

What you're suggesting is that ASU would then jump on board with the Big Ten schools and have a reverse situation where they're the only member of the league without voting rights. And since they're a Pac-12 member, they wouldn't sacrifice member voting rights to join a league where everyone else is a major competitor in virtually every other sport. It politically is a dumb move if they do. It's necessary for ASU to remain in a league where they could have full member rights, especially if hockey goes the autonomy route that is rumored to happen.

The next member of the B1G is likely to be Illinois at this rate anyways.

 

[Humanoid]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Actually, you are pretty far off here..lax is bigger than hockey in terms of more schools playing it and adding it yearly. Off the top of my head, Lowell, NJ Tech, Mercer, High Point, Furman, and Cleveland State have all added men's lacrosse in the last four years or start playing next year. I would expect Minnesota to start exploring too

Two schools have added hockey in ASU and Penn State.

Side bar - Lax might be growing, but it's also a substantially less expensive sport to grow. Hockey needs much more in terms of expenses in facilities and equipment. Being able to find the right school is more about opportunity and money than it is the sport itself at times. The CHI folks discussed that as part of the growth of the game during Frozen Four weekend, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Actually, you are pretty far off here..lax is bigger than hockey in terms of more schools playing it and adding it yearly. Off the top of my head, Lowell, NJ Tech, Mercer, High Point, Furman, and Cleveland State have all added men's lacrosse in the last four years or start playing next year. I would expect Minnesota to start exploring to

Boston University also added men's lacrosse 2 years ago.

Sean

 

[Sean Pickett]

Lacrosse is not a "major" sport and Johns Hopkins is a totally unique situation in lacrosse in that they are THE power in the sport much like Everest is THE mountain.

The Big 10 needed a 6th team to even have a conference league in lacrosse, a sport in which I have seen zero speculation about any other Big 10 school adding.

We're having a hard enough time finding 2 schools to add hockey in the Big 10. Johns Hopkins was a means to an end in a "minor" sport that nobody else was or is even looking at. Different situation, entirely.

My post emphasized MAJOR sports. With apologies to lacrosse fan (and, I like lacrosse--it is a hockey variant) it is far down the ladder rung, even, from hockey. And, I readily acknowledge that there is probably an element of people reading this post, even here at USCHO, that would argue that even hockey isn't a "major" NCAA sport.

I think it is, though.

First, Johns Hopkins is no longer the power in lacrosse that they used to be. That and the growth of the sport was leaving them fewer teams to schedule, leading to them needing to join a league to remain a viable DI program.

Second, major or not, men's lacrosse is growing and championship weekend makes money for the NCAA.

Sean

 

[The Zlax45]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Boston University also added men's lacrosse 2 years ago.

Sean

Totally blanked on that! I knew I missed some

 

[Red Cows]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Actually, you are pretty far off here..lax is bigger than hockey in terms of more schools playing it and adding it yearly. Off the top of my head, Lowell, NJ Tech, Mercer, High Point, Furman, and Cleveland State have all added men's lacrosse in the last four years or start playing next year. I would expect Minnesota to start exploring too

Two schools have added hockey in ASU and Penn State.

I submit that you that if Jay Leno was still hosting "The Tonight Show" and had an entire segment of "Jaywalking" devoted to showing actual lacrosse highlights to "the man-on-the-street", most people would NOT be able to identify the sport they were watching video of.

Whereas, nearly 100% would readily identify a hockey game if shown video of it.

 

[The Zlax45]

I submit that you that if Jay Leno was still hosting "The Tonight Show" and had an entire segment of "Jaywalking" devoted to showing actual lacrosse highlights to "the man-on-the-street", most people would NOT be able to identify the sport they were watching video of.

Whereas, nearly 100% would readily identify a hockey game if shown video of it.

Let the record show that the NCAA Lax D-2 and D-3 finals last year had a higher attendance than the average of the D-1 CWS...

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Lacrosse is not a "major" sport and Johns Hopkins is a totally unique situation in lacrosse in that they are THE power in the sport much like Everest is THE mountain.

The Big 10 needed a 6th team to even have a conference league in lacrosse, a sport in which I have seen zero speculation about any other Big 10 school adding.

We're having a hard enough time finding 2 schools to add hockey in the Big 10. Johns Hopkins was a means to an end in a "minor" sport that nobody else was or is even looking at. Different situation, entirely.

My post emphasized MAJOR sports. With apologies to lacrosse fan (and, I like lacrosse--it is a hockey variant) it is far down the ladder rung, even, from hockey. And, I readily acknowledge that there is probably an element of people reading this post, even here at USCHO, that would argue that even hockey isn't a "major" NCAA sport.

I think it is, though.

Not to mention that the Big Ten's CIC would love to bring in John Hopkins into that fold with them. Right now the CIC collectively graduates about 15 percent of doctors in the United States. And then you add in a direct access into the JHU system and the research they do there, only going to make them better. Its a lot better deal for the Big Ten presidents to allow in John Hopkins just for Lacrosse when they can get their undergrads access to John Hopkins.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Me too. Them and the 2 Alaska schools would be a travel budget nightmare though

Both Alaska schools pay for the large majority of travel costs for any and all visiting schools. All ASU has to do is the same ... then guess what? Nobody will ever whine again about the trip out to the big bad western half of the country. Oh wait ... yes they will because no matter how many times you tell them they don't get that it doesn't cost their team any more to go there than it does to visit some craphole like Toledo, Omaha or Grand Forks.

 

[Humanoid]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Let the record show that the NCAA Lax D-2 and D-3 finals last year had a higher attendance than the average of the D-1 CWS...

Also let the record show that tickets for the D2 and D3 lax finals were probably sold in bulk with the D1 final and therefore skewed attendance numbers the same way that the regional tickets and doubleheader tickets are skewed in hockey. For example, Omaha-Providence was not sold out yet claimed an 18,022 attendance for a sell out at the Garden.

Likewise, the UND-BU game was probably 80% full but was listed as a sell-out. Why? Because you bought both tickets and then didn't stay for the second game or you bought both tickets as a unit and then didn't attend the first game. The majority of North Dakota fans were still at the bar for the bulk of the first game and didn't come until the third period.

So the lax finals attendance is skewed by that. While lacrosse is a growing sport, it's not bigger than hockey on a national scale. Roughly 717,000 people watched Union win the national title in '14. Slightly less watched BU-PC. Doesn't seem like a lot, but bear in mind that only La Liga beat out college hockey this year. I doubt you can say the same about the D1 lax championships.

We're not here to argue about the merits of lacrosse vs. hockey. I think you'll find many of us watch lacrosse. But trolling us to say that lacrosse is a bigger sport than hockey - on a hockey website? - is unbecoming of you.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Also let the record show that tickets for the D2 and D3 lax finals were probably sold in bulk with the D1 final and therefore skewed attendance numbers the same way that the regional tickets and doubleheader tickets are skewed in hockey. For example, Omaha-Providence was not sold out yet claimed an 18,022 attendance for a sell out at the Garden.

Likewise, the UND-BU game was probably 80% full but was listed as a sell-out. Why? Because you bought both tickets and then didn't stay for the second game or you bought both tickets as a unit and then didn't attend the first game. The majority of North Dakota fans were still at the bar for the bulk of the first game and didn't come until the third period.

So the lax finals attendance is skewed by that. While lacrosse is a growing sport, it's not bigger than hockey on a national scale. Roughly 717,000 people watched Union win the national title in '14. Slightly less watched BU-PC. Doesn't seem like a lot, but bear in mind that only La Liga beat out college hockey this year. I doubt you can say the same about the D1 lax championships.

We're not here to argue about the merits of lacrosse vs. hockey. I think you'll find many of us watch lacrosse. But trolling us to say that lacrosse is a bigger sport than hockey - on a hockey website? - is unbecoming of you.

Yes, the D2 & D3 tickets are part of the Lax all-session packages, but 1) if you wait you don't have to buy them and 2) the games are on the off day between the semifinals and final and no one has to attend (when the games were at Gillette Stadium I skipped the D2 & D3 games).

As for TV ratings, nice how you mentioned 2014 and ignored 2013 and 2012. The annual HH watching the FF championship game the past seven years:
2015: 635,000 (Providence vs. Boston University)
2014: 717,000 (Union vs Minnesota)
2013: 402,000 (Yale vs. Quinnipiac)
2012: 353,000 (Boston College vs. Ferris State)**
2011: 624,000 (Minnesota Duluth vs. Michigan)
2010: 526,000 (Boston College vs. Wisconsin)
2009: 656,000 (Boston University vs. Miami)
**Game aired on ESPN2
Number is in households rather than estimated viewers. (I.E. 526,000 households watched in 2010 for an estimated 1.3M viewers.

That is an average of 515,000 HH. I haven't found ratings for the lacrosse championship other than 2014, which had 496,000 HH. However a direct comparison is not valid as the FF is on a Saturday night and the lacrosse championship is on Memorial Day afternoon.

Sean

 

[davyd83]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Both Alaska schools pay for the large majority of travel costs for any and all visiting schools. All ASU has to do is the same ... then guess what? Nobody will ever whine again about the trip out to the big bad western half of the country. Oh wait ... yes they will because no matter how many times you tell them they don't get that it doesn't cost their team any more to go there than it does to visit some craphole like Toledo, Omaha or Grand Forks.

Omaha is a pretty nice town. Outstanding actually. Grand Forks has a rink that is the best in college hockey. Your term to describe these towns more accurately describes the palace your team plays in. Oh, and nobody goes to Toledo except when they hosted a regional. U of Toledo has no hockey team.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Omaha is a pretty nice town. Outstanding actually. Grand Forks has a rink that is the best in college hockey. Your term to describe these towns more accurately describes the palace your team plays in. Oh, and nobody goes to Toledo except when they hosted a regional. U of Toledo has no hockey team.

I don't know what part of Omaha you have been to, but my experiences there have been universally negative. so just sayin...

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Here's the thing - Hockey is much different in terms of landscape than Lacrosse. And in terms of voting membership, there is no way Arizona State lands in the B1G because they won't have any voting rights.

I was of this opinion six months ago. Felt quite sure that there's no way ASU would end up in the B1G. Afterall, what does the B1G get out of it? Really not that much from my mind.

But Heppel, the big cheese in BTHC, changed my mind by suggesting that the B1G was actually woo'ing ASU:

"I think being in a conference with like institutions is important," Heppel said. "[Arizona State] is going to have to think about that from an institutional and sport perspective. The Big Ten and Pac-12 have a historic relationship."

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Not to mention that the Big Ten's CIC would love to bring in John Hopkins into that fold with them. Right now the CIC collectively graduates about 15 percent of doctors in the United States. And then you add in a direct access into the JHU system and the research they do there, only going to make them better. Its a lot better deal for the Big Ten presidents to allow in John Hopkins just for Lacrosse when they can get their undergrads access to John Hopkins.

This is an important point. Academics is the key driver in almost all big ten decisions. Sports are small potatoes. And if ain't close. Academics can bring in billions while athletics tops out around $100-150 million.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: Arizona State Moving To D1

Omaha is a pretty nice town. Outstanding actually. Grand Forks has a rink that is the best in college hockey. Your term to describe these towns more accurately describes the palace your team plays in. Oh, and nobody goes to Toledo except when they hosted a regional. U of Toledo has no hockey team.

You only have to drive through Grand Forks and Toledo (BGSU ya genius) to recognize they are both a craphole. Been there done that more than once.

As for Omaha ... lived there. It's a craphole. Mostly due to the other people that also live there.

 

[Squarebanks]

Both Alaska schools pay for the large majority of travel costs for any and all visiting schools. All ASU has to do is the same ... then guess what? Nobody will ever whine again about the trip out to the big bad western half of the country. Oh wait ... yes they will because no matter how many times you tell them they don't get that it doesn't cost their team any more to go there than it does to visit some craphole like Toledo, Omaha or Grand Forks.

Well...they'll whine until they actually go to Tempe and realize that Tempe in January is way better to visit than any other city in college hockey.

 

[davyd83]

You only have to drive through Grand Forks and Toledo (BGSU ya genius) to recognize they are both a craphole. Been there done that more than once.

As for Omaha ... lived there. It's a craphole. Mostly due to the other people that also live there.

BGSU is in Bowling Green. 25 minutes from Toledo, (kind of like Chugiak & Anchorage) and it's a pretty decent town. If you're calling Omaha a craphole, like you do so many places, because of the people who live there, I sure hope people don't rate the beautiful city of Anchorage based on your charm.