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AOC Rules!

Re: AOC Rules!

I have to disagree with AOC on one point here (ducks lightening bolt). You can grow production of natural gas, a fossil fuel, IF its taking the place of dirtier forms of energy (coal, oil) and still benefit the environment. Yes we should eventually move on from that as well, but if you could say increase production to switch trucks and busses from petroleum based fuel to compressed natural gas for example, you'd do the environment a lot of good.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

Rover said:
I have to disagree with AOC on one point here (ducks lightening bolt). You can grow production of natural gas, a fossil fuel, IF its taking the place of dirtier forms of energy (coal, oil) and still benefit the environment. Yes we should eventually move on from that as well, but if you could say increase production to switch trucks and busses from petroleum based fuel to compressed natural gas for example, you'd do the environment a lot of good.
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Yes, of course.

The number one thing here is to stop socializing the losses.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

Rover said:
I have to disagree with AOC on one point here (ducks lightening bolt). You can grow production of natural gas, a fossil fuel, IF its taking the place of dirtier forms of energy (coal, oil) and still benefit the environment. Yes we should eventually move on from that as well, but if you could say increase production to switch trucks and busses from petroleum based fuel to compressed natural gas for example, you'd do the environment a lot of good.
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In Civ VI: Gathering Storm you run into a lot of serious problems late in the game with the environment because of carbon emissions. Retooling coal plants into oil plants reduces carbon emissions, even though the oil plants are still really dirty (indeed one thing that comes across in the game is how ludicrously dirty coal is). You often need the power generation of the fossil fuels to build hydroelectric dams and create the units which allow you to seed your territory with wind farms and solar collectors.

tl; dr: Agreed.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

Rover said:
Small levy on fossil fuel producers
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Aren't we still subsidizing them -- i.e., doing EXACTLY the opposite?

Energy is a powerful group of rich twats. The most powerful in the world after Finance, and the only other one that could topple democratic government if we tried to prevent their brigandage (unless you think of Religion as an industry).
 
Re: AOC Rules!

Kepler said:
Aren't we still subsidizing them -- i.e., doing EXACTLY the opposite?

Energy is a powerful group of rich twats. The most powerful in the world after Finance, and the only other one that could topple democratic government if we tried to prevent their brigandage (unless you think of Religion as an industry).
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You are correct. As I posted a long time ago, giving tax breaks to oil companies to drill for oil is like giving tax breaks to McDonalds to make hamburgers. There are so many low hanging fruit when it comes to reforming the tax code (carried interest and deferred comp being some of the others) that affect so few people you might not even need that 99% tax rate on the top earners to pay for liberal social programs!
 
Re: AOC Rules!

Rover said:
Small levy on fossil fuel producers to raise funds put aside to pay for inevitable environmental cleanup should to the trick.
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Yes. The same thing is being worked on in Minnesota for any new mines for metal that are being started up north. Hopefully they won't **** it up.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

alfablue said:
WF should at least offer to put out a loan for the clean up. They know the risks, they also claim that they are trying to help the environment. So at least be part of the clean up.
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I’m sure they’d be thrilled for someone to borrow money to clean it up. I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

Rover said:
You are correct. As I posted a long time ago, giving tax breaks to oil companies to drill for oil is like giving tax breaks to McDonalds to make hamburgers. There are so many low hanging fruit when it comes to reforming the tax code (carried interest and deferred comp being some of the others) that affect so few people you might not even need that 99% tax rate on the top earners to pay for liberal social programs!
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Re: AOC Rules!

dxmnkd316 said:
I’m sure they’d be thrilled for someone to borrow money to clean it up. I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
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Simple. There should be an account set up for estimated clean up costs before the project is built. If they want to take out a loan for that first, fine. If they want to bank the money and pay it up front that's also fine. No building the pipeline etc. without knowing that this is paid for already.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

The problem is with the oil and gas companies. They should be required to have environmental insurance or bonds big enough to cover clean ups. This is pretty simple law and already exists in some places. A lot of the laws came out of clean ups from coal mining in the eastern states. Companies would take out these bonds and then just walk away when stuff went wrong but the bonds were never enough. We need laws in place to require the clean up bonds to be big enough to actually do the job and if thats too expensive for the oil & gas companies...then I guess that work isn't worth it...
 
Re: AOC Rules!

dxmnkd316 said:
I’m sure they’d be thrilled for someone to borrow money to clean it up. I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
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The problem is that its currently easier on Oil & Gas to walk away. A lot of this work is done by shell companies on behalf of big companies so they just go bankrupt and walk away when things go bad which is why as I said some states have started to require bonds/insurance beforehand large enough to cover clean ups.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

dxmnkd316 said:
And how do you propose we transport the oil?
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In a way that doesn't ignore treaties with Native Americans, federal regulations, and doesn't cause damage to fresh water supplies and the environment at large, and doesn't desecrate NA burial sites. In a way that's adequately planned so that leaks that cause environmental damage for 6-7 years completely undetected If it does leak and cause environmental damage someone who's profiting off it needs to pay their fair share to fix it.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

ScoobyDoo said:
Simple. There should be an account set up for estimated clean up costs before the project is built. If they want to take out a loan for that first, fine. If they want to bank the money and pay it up front that's also fine. No building the pipeline etc. without knowing that this is paid for already.
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Shirtless Guy said:
The problem is with the oil and gas companies. They should be required to have environmental insurance or bonds big enough to cover clean ups. This is pretty simple law and already exists in some places. A lot of the laws came out of clean ups from coal mining in the eastern states. Companies would take out these bonds and then just walk away when stuff went wrong but the bonds were never enough. We need laws in place to require the clean up bonds to be big enough to actually do the job and if thats too expensive for the oil & gas companies...then I guess that work isn't worth it...
Click to expand...

100% on board with this. All of this is sensible and practical.

Shirtless Guy said:
The problem is that its currently easier on Oil & Gas to walk away. A lot of this work is done by shell companies on behalf of big companies so they just go bankrupt and walk away when things go bad which is why as I said some states have started to require bonds/insurance beforehand large enough to cover clean ups.
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Yeah, states should implement laws making the hiring company, the operating company, and any contractors liable. Shell games shouldn’t be allowed to protect the ultimate beneficiary of the system.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

trixR4kids said:
In a way that doesn't ignore treaties with Native Americans, federal regulations, and doesn't cause damage to fresh water supplies and the environment at large, and doesn't desecrate NA burial sites. In a way that's adequately planned so that leaks that cause environmental damage for 6-7 years completely undetected If it does leak and cause environmental damage someone who's profiting off it needs to pay their fair share to fix it.
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If it’s violating federal regulations, then the feds should pursue injunctions or file suits after the fact.
 
trixR4kids said:
Pipelines and oil companies have a long history of causing environmental damage so no, she's not being stupid, and that's why people were fighting it in the first place. And nobody said we're going to just "stop fossil fuels".
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But we are gonna take your cows.
 
Re: AOC Rules!

trixR4kids said:
In a way that doesn't ignore treaties with Native Americans, federal regulations, and doesn't cause damage to fresh water supplies and the environment at large, and doesn't desecrate NA burial sites. In a way that's adequately planned so that leaks that cause environmental damage for 6-7 years completely undetected If it does leak and cause environmental damage someone who's profiting off it needs to pay their fair share to fix it.
Click to expand...

So, basically using the Star Trek teleportation machine?

When you harvest substances like oil from land or from water, you expose that land or water to risk that there will be a spill or an accident or a blow out or whatever. The same when you transport that substance across land or water, and honestly, there really is no other way of transporting it other than across land or water.

All we can do is implement reasonable regulations to require that oil companies and the transport companies to do so up to available industry standards, and if there is a spill or escape, to look to the responsible party for the costs of clean up.

Yeah, it sucks when there is a spill or leak. Yeah in an ideal world we wouldn't have to use oil or coal and we could just leave them where they are at, deep within the earth. And yeah it wreaks havoc on fish and wildlife and even humans when the leak or spill occurs, but at the end of the day spilled oil or coal is really returning to whence it came.
 
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