Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Pulling out the CCHA Cities from your list:

Actual averages for regional attendance since we went to 16 teams for the 2003 tourney:

City	Games	Avg. Attendance
Ann Arbor, MI	3	6792
Cincinnati, OH	9	4837
Fort Wayne, IN	3	3823
Grand Rapids, MI	15	4404
South Bend, IN	3	3982
st. Louis, MO	3	5024
Toledo, OH	3	2812
Grand Total	...	....

With the probable exception of Ann Arbor, all of these numbers seem too high for in-house attendance. (Sometimes referred to as the Drop Count) But unless we can equip WeAreNDHockey with a time travel machine, we aren't going to get a trustworthy account of the number of butts in the seats.

Let's assume, though, that the above numbers have a rational relationship to money in the till, subject only to minor padding. In that case, they do help explain why the current system has endured, rather than imploding on itself.

I think ultimately travel is the only major factor for these things...

Can't agree with the word "only." But certainly it's the major factor. Travel is manageable for the NE & E; a huge problem for the MW; a major issue for the W -- even with the "Dakota Exception."

https://twitter.com/exileondaytonst/status/1110744096203857920?s=21

The last true home rink host was Notre Dame in 2015, and Minnesota in 2009 before that. (A few visits to St Paul and Providence are pretty close to home for some, but are technically neutral ice by the most boring of definitions)

See a trend on that front?

Not saying “higher seed hosts” is the answer (it isn’t), but letting Wisconsin or NoDak or DU/CC host in their own rinks would help with attendance.

… if they make the tourney…

Except that this solution recreates the original problem. The primary motivation for the current system is the desire to prevent unearned home ice advantage. Should the Badgers ever parlay home ice into an upset victory in the regionals, Kohl Center would join Yost and Mariucci on the vilified list. UND & DU might get off a little easier since they're not part of the evil B1G, but there would still be lots of protest.

If we're really stuck with neutral ice uber alles, then we should just do it & stop with the hypocritical exceptions. If so, the regionals will stay off my travel list permanently, but I'll continue to watch on TV. Many others would do the same.

Who knows. Maybe in 30 years time College Hockey will grow enough for neutral site regionals to do well in the MW & W. Just in time for the 100th Anniversary of the NCAA tournament. Realistically, that wouldn't do me any good. But it is a nice thought.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

I hate to admit it but Ohio State for hockey just doesn't have enough of a dedicated fan base who travel well to away games. And if some of our more diehard fans are blue collar workers the time and money may not always be available to do so.
It could have been different if years ago the Athletic Department had done what they could and should have done to develop the program into it's full potential but that's only now happening so it will be a slow growth for our fans to be seen in real numbers at regionals.

 

[davyd83]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

One of the problems the Regionals face, in any format, is that a good percentage of their target market has just spent money on the conference tournaments. Only a certain percentage can afford both their conference tourneys, then make a last minute trip to regionals, especially if a flight is involved. And of those that can, they’re more likely to wait and see if their team makes the Frozen Four.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Also: we’re just so spread out over here.

The schools presently making up the WCHA, NCHC, and B1G average 9 teams in the field in any given year, so we definitely “deserve” two regionals in our footprint.

But we also have very few combinations of schools that are even within a two hour drive of each other, much less do we have a lot of locations where numerous schools can easily get to. Easterners might complain about driving to Manchester or Worcester, but it’s a hell of a lot easier than schlepping from Minnesota to Michigan.

 

[chickod]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Easterners might complain about driving to Manchester or Worcester, but it’s a hell of a lot easier than schlepping from Minnesota to Michigan.

Well, not me anyway. I LOVE the fact that I can get to (I don't even know what the latest count it) any Regional location in the last ten years in five hours or less. And usually it's one hour or less.

 

[Split-N]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

...I LOVE the fact that I can get to (I don't even know what the latest count it) any Regional location in the last ten years in five hours or less. And usually it's one hour or less.

Taking this thought one step further, anyone in the Boston area can actually commute to and from Providence as many times as they like, all for the cost of a $10 weekend pass on the MBTA Commuter Rail. And to make it even easier for NU students and anyone else living close by, the Providence-Stoughton line stops at Ruggles Station, on the edge of the NU campus. No need for hotel rooms.

On the other end, the Providence train station is within walking distance of The Dunk. Such a deal!!

 

[J.D.]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

As of right now, planning on going to Manchester Friday and Providence Saturday. These regional weekends are turning into my "big" weekends out these days. That's the boring life I live! Refreshing to leave a toddler behind for a few hours

There's no question that hockey fans in the Boston/Providence/Hartford area have it best when it comes to these regionals. Of the recent sites (Bridgeport, Providence, Worcester, Manchester) Bridgeport is the only one I haven't been to and even that is only 2 hours and 15 minutes from me. Will probably make that drive at some point. I am in the minority in that I will go to these when my team isn't in it. Wish more people would, really is a great take.

I'm curious what you midwesterners think would be good "west" and "midwest" sites. I know they obviously have to bid but taking that out of it, what would be good for you guys?

 

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

I'm curious what you midwesterners think would be good "west" and "midwest" sites. I know they obviously have to bid but taking that out of it, what would be good for you guys?

Good question. Tough one because, as EODS notes, almost no Western schools are that close to each other. Kato's 2 closest opponents are both over an hour away, and in different conferences. The upside to that is that we're used to driving more than 90 minutes to see a game.

I really liked Sioux Falls last year. A number of schools are at least as close as NoDak, and could host there. Other possibilities:
Des Moines - Wells Fargo is home to an AHL team
Quad Cities - Hosted an ECHL team until this year. Hotels, amenities perhaps not as good as other sites.
Rockford, IL - Has the IceHogs. Rockford isn't my favorite town in the world, but it's no worse than Toledo or Worcester.
Green Bay - Home of the USHL's Gamblers. I know it's been tried before. Would really need Wisco or a UP team for attendance
Rosemont - Home of the Chicago Wolves, and very accessible with its proximity to O'Hare.

 

[chickod]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Taking this thought one step further, anyone in the Boston area can actually commute to and from Providence as many times as they like, all for the cost of a $10 weekend pass on the MBTA Commuter Rail. And to make it even easier for NU students and anyone else living close by, the Providence-Stoughton line stops at Ruggles Station, on the edge of the NU campus. No need for hotel rooms.

On the other end, the Providence train station is within walking distance of The Dunk. Such a deal!!

That is, of course, until there is a four overtime game...

 

[chickod]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Good question. Tough one because, as EODS notes, almost no Western schools are that close to each other. Kato's 2 closest opponents are both over an hour away, and in different conferences. The upside to that is that we're used to driving more than 90 minutes to see a game.

I really liked Sioux Falls last year. A number of schools are at least as close as NoDak, and could host there. Other possibilities:
Des Moines - Wells Fargo is home to an AHL team
Quad Cities - Hosted an ECHL team until this year. Hotels, amenities perhaps not as good as other sites.
Rockford, IL - Has the IceHogs. Rockford isn't my favorite town in the world, but it's no worse than Toledo or Worcester.
Green Bay - Home of the USHL's Gamblers. I know it's been tried before. Would really need Wisco or a UP team for attendance
Rosemont - Home of the Chicago Wolves, and very accessible with its proximity to O'Hare.

AND the Rockford Peaches of the AAGPBL (made famous by the movie "A League of Their Own")

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

I'm curious what you midwesterners think would be good "west" and "midwest" sites. I know they obviously have to bid but taking that out of it, what would be good for you guys?

Twin Cities and Detroit are the only major cities with multiple teams <somewhat> nearby. Denver to a lesser extent. Not sure what other 6-15,000 seat arenas they have nearby, or if we can only use Xcel/Little Ceasar’s.

Beyond that, I’m curious if any of the rinks around Chicago could ever get a look. Not close to many teams (Wisconsin and Notre Dame are slightly close, but that’s pretty much it), but verrrrry easy to get to by plane.

 

[cetihcra]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Twin Cities and Detroit are the only major cities with multiple teams <somewhat> nearby. Denver to a lesser extent. Not sure what other 6-15,000 seat arenas they have nearby, or if we can only use Xcel/Little Ceasar’s.

Beyond that, I’m curious if any of the rinks around Chicago could ever get a look. Not close to many teams (Wisconsin and Notre Dame are slightly close, but that’s pretty much it), but verrrrry easy to get to by plane.

Denver area options: 1stBank Center (7500; Broomfield, CO; Had a CHL team a while back), Budweiser Event Center (5289; Loveland, CO; Current AHL tenant), Denver Coliseum (8140; Denver, CO; Had a CHL team for a couple years recently. Building is older than dirt (1951)).

Once CC builds their home arena, Broadmoor World Arena will probably host regionals occasionally. Other than that, I doubt you'll see anybody bid for a regional at any of the above front range arenas.

r

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

MN got screwed. Wait, wrong thread.

Don't like the sites? Get your city/school to bid on it. Period.

100% this. I get a laugh out of Pennsylvania being a midwest regional, but the answer is simple. We need more teams bidding.

 

[davyd83]

Twin Cities and Detroit are the only major cities with multiple teams <somewhat> nearby. Denver to a lesser extent. Not sure what other 6-15,000 seat arenas they have nearby, or if we can only use Xcel/Little Ceasar’s.

Beyond that, I’m curious if any of the rinks around Chicago could ever get a look. Not close to many teams (Wisconsin and Notre Dame are slightly close, but that’s pretty much it), but verrrrry easy to get to by plane.

Mikwaukee has potential to be a good Regional site. The AHL Milwaukee Admirals moves into UWMilwaukee Panther Arena (the former Mecca) and a lot of work has been done there and it now seats about 9900 for hockey. It’s a very reasonable drive for the Minnesota schools. Wisconsin, most of the Michigan and Ohio schools are all within a day’s drive. Great city and plenty of bars, restaurants and hotels within walking distance of the arena.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

They should just do like football in Europe and crown a champion at the end of the regular season. No tournaments, no playoffs. Congratulations St Cloud. Now we're all spared three weeks of whining.

I'm in.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Minnesota State was the 4th team. To say the place wasn't half full is far too kind. As Notre Dame was sleepwalking through their 17-1 loss to St.Cloud (OK it just seemed that bad, I think it might have been 5-1) I got tremendously bored and counted the "crowd." Twice. Once late in the second period and once early in the third period. Both times I counted around 800 people. The boxscore attendance for that game is sheer fantasy. No way 3000 people paid inflated NCAA regional ticket prices and then did not show up. They made up the number. It was a complete disaster.

For the life of me I can't imagine why anyone bids on an NCAA regional. Anyone who has ever read the host manual knows why I think that. You have to guarantee the NCAA a minimum amount of money and if you don't sell enough tickets or merchandise to do so, you pay out of your own pocket. After you reach the minimum guarantee, it isn't like you get to keep the rest. No, you have to share most of the revenue you generated with the NCAA. After you give them their cut of left over revenue after you met the minimum, hopefully you have enough left over to pay all of the expenses. If not, your loss. If by some miracle you actually then still have some money left over, the sharing ain't over yet. You STILL have to share some of it with the NCAA.

Notre Dame has hosted two of these and the first was awful, in Fort Wayne and even with Miami and Michigan, no one showed up. They got smart when they hosted again at the Compton, which the NCAA allowed because due to their greed and the extreme niche status of our sport. They charged their entire season ticket base $45 for NCAA tickets. They generated nearly $100,000 doing so. But due to Notre Dame crapping the bed that season, Notre Dame was golfing while their rink was hosting. Did fans get a refund? Of course not. The games were still played. By my count there weren't a dozen season ticket holders in the building for both games. As anyone with eyes knows, 95% of the fans out there are almost exclusively fans of their team, not of the sport. Years ago I remember going to plenty of conference or NCAA tournament events in different sports with multiple games and 4 or 8 teams. You often saw plenty of people stay for the whole event, or at the very least I would see basketball fans stay for at least 2 of four games. Not anymore. And people spending less time in the building means fewer concessions get sold.

For me, if I'm in the building I'd rather have packed stands and a great atmosphere. And that means campus sites for higher seeds. But I also know if there were twice as many sites, and the tournament wasn't single elimination the TV coverage would suffer greatly. It isn't perfect now, but it allows you to watch at least parts of all the games, and most or all of most of them. It's a great three days, in my opinion and the play far outclasses the men's basketball tournament. Our tournament has become one of the best things going, with the mix of teams that can win, and all of the upsets. 1500 people in an 8000 seat arena sucks, but 99% of us will watch this on TV and not in person, so I have come to accept it.

Excellent post

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

I think ultimately travel is the only major factor for these things.

Having SCSU in St Paul doesn’t make or break numbers, but having the Gophers there sure does. See also: Wisconsin in Green Bay, Michigan in Grand Rapids, etc.

Might as well add the Sioux in there. They travel better than most teams. A pestilence upon the cities. But at least they spend their hard-earned beet money here.

 

[Biddco]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Denver area options: 1stBank Center (7500; Broomfield, CO; Had a CHL team a while back), Budweiser Event Center (5289; Loveland, CO; Current AHL tenant), Denver Coliseum (8140; Denver, CO; Had a CHL team for a couple years recently. Building is older than dirt (1951)).

Once CC builds their home arena, Broadmoor World Arena will probably host regionals occasionally. Other than that, I doubt you'll see anybody bid for a regional at any of the above front range arenas.

r

I heard a rumor that Denver bid on a regional in the Denver area. Perhaps that will become a site?

Good question. Tough one because, as EODS notes, almost no Western schools are that close to each other. Kato's 2 closest opponents are both over an hour away, and in different conferences. The upside to that is that we're used to driving more than 90 minutes to see a game.

I really liked Sioux Falls last year. A number of schools are at least as close as NoDak, and could host there. Other possibilities:
Des Moines - Wells Fargo is home to an AHL team
Quad Cities - Hosted an ECHL team until this year. Hotels, amenities perhaps not as good as other sites.
Rockford, IL - Has the IceHogs. Rockford isn't my favorite town in the world, but it's no worse than Toledo or Worcester.
Green Bay - Home of the USHL's Gamblers. I know it's been tried before. Would really need Wisco or a UP team for attendance
Rosemont - Home of the Chicago Wolves, and very accessible with its proximity to O'Hare.

These are good suggestions, although I beileve Green Bay is out because they host the Wisconsin Girls State Basketball Tournament.

I don't know why other teams don't try to host at the X as well. The Gophers are busy with other sports to host but it's available so why not?

 

[davyd83]

I heard a rumor that Denver bid on a regional in the Denver area. Perhaps that will become a site?


These are good suggestions, although I beileve Green Bay is out because they host the Wisconsin Girls State Basketball Tournament.

I don't know why other teams don't try to host at the X as well. The Gophers are busy with other sports to host but it's available so why not?

You’re right. Green Bay is unavailable.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Mikwaukee has potential to be a good Regional site. The AHL Milwaukee Admirals moves into UWMilwaukee Panther Arena (the former Mecca) and a lot of work has been done there and it now seats about 9900 for hockey. It’s a very reasonable drive for the Minnesota schools. Wisconsin, most of the Michigan and Ohio schools are all within a day’s drive. Great city and plenty of bars, restaurants and hotels within walking distance of the arena.

Travel for non-Badger fans isn’t a gimme, but it would probably be somewhere between Madison and Green Bay for attendance success.

That said: it’s been a very well reviewed location for Frozen fours (rightfully so, I love downtown Milwaukee) and the UWM Arena is across the street from where the Bradley Center once stood.

In fact, I have other, more deeply absurd ideas for what might work in Milwaukee: https://twitter.com/exileondaytonst/status/1110888635463843840?s=21