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America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Then again, at least Bush was on record as saying he was glad he lived in a country where you could rally in the street against the President.
That sounds nice, but it rings hollow in view of the fact that some 1,800 people were arrested during the 2004 Republican National Convention for doing just that.

Will socialized medicine be managed as well as the Post Office (rate increases, fewer post offices, fewer delivery days)?
Given that UPS and FedEx aren't doing anything for you for under five bucks, I fail to see how the fact that USPS has raised the cost of a stamp to 44 whole cents is evidence of poor management. If anything, cutting excessive costs could be considered evidence of good management - isn't that something a private investor will often do if they're taking over a struggling business?
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I appreciate the rational answer, jmh.

Living close enough to Canada to listen to their media (CJOB - Winnipeg) the true "money question" in this is:

How do we keep from quality of care falling like it appears to have in Canada and England?

Having to wait six months for an MRI (fairly common wait in Canada) is a death sentence in some cases and that's the conversation going on, even on CJOB regarding Mr. Obama's plans.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Health costs in this country keep escalating because we're too good at keeping people alive already. Yes, terribly cold, but there it is.

Maladies that Darwin's Law used to dominate are now detectable and survivable. Pick your malady, from infancy to infirmity.

But those tests and treatments cost money. And every day new tests and treatments are being devised. And they cost money.

And if your insurance doesn't cover that test and treatment and you suffer you're on (news magazine show here) talking to (bubble-headed bleach blonde here) about how e-e-e-e-evil (insurance company here) is. So, the average person plus employer is paying more.

But the logical next question is: Are they also getting more for the higher premiums? Yes, because it's covering the new treatments.

To fight the paying more some companies have gone "HSA". Wonderful sounding. But as soon as you get a malady that may not be completely covered go to ... (at risk of repeating myself) "if your insurance doesn't cover that test and treatment and you suffer you're on (news magazine show here) talking to (bubble-headed bleach blonde here) about how e-e-e-e-evil (insurance company here) is."

Why should health care be any different than health food? If you worry about it, you buy and use the good stuff. If not, you eat crap and well, you live (or not) with the consequences.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

He's largely correct however. Politically speaking, this is backfiring. Its a stupid tactic.

They rode the tiger and it's eating them. This is 20 years of screaming from car radios, now echoing through the people who absorbed all that poison and reached saturation.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Came across another article today from the S&A Digest:


By Dan Ferris in response to a reader in the S&A Digest:

"I go to the local VA. It is fine. It is free. Your concerns about government take over of health care (a misnomer) are nothing but fear, and, as you know, we have nothing to fear... We desperately need a public option to bring competition into the sickness care industry. It works in every other advanced country. We rank 28th in the world in performance and first in expenditure. The for-profit insurance industry with its billion-dollar payouts to executives is a layer of cost that is not needed. We need a one payer system like Medicare or the VA." - Paid-up subscriber George Cheney

Ferris comment: Public options don't create more competition. They eliminate competition by seizing scarce resources. What you propose will have the efficiency of the Post Office and the compassion of the IRS.

The local VA is not free. You and I both pay for it through taxes, and I promise you that payment is much higher than the value of the service rendered. If the billion-dollar payouts you mention existed (they don't), they wouldn't be nearly as expensive as the layers of bureaucratic waste that have been added to health care in the U.S. over the last few decades. How many bureaucrats per caregiver do we have now? Is it 20? 30? 50? I can't keep up with it.

Obama's system will make health care more scarce by artificially lowering the price. Health care is no different than TV sets or sugar or vacations. If you subsidize the market, everyone will demand more, while simultaneously giving suppliers incentives to supply less. Waiting rooms will overflow - just like they do in every other country that does this. Suddenly, everyone will need an MRI. People like me, who have degenerative disc disease, won't be able to get one when we're so crippled by pain we can't stand up. Doctors will be overwhelmed and underpaid, and I'll have to leave the country in a vain attempt to keep the system from killing me and my family.

You say it works in every other advanced country. That's false. Socialized medicine is a disaster everywhere it's tried. I recently heard the mobs in waiting rooms in Sweden sometimes get violent enough that armed guards are necessary. I've spoken with Canadians who tell me their system is horribly flawed and corrupt. They just come to the U.S. I wonder where they'll go after people like you are done with U.S. health care?

We don't need a "one-payer" system - all that means is " government-controlled." Health care is not special. You screw it up, and you'll ruin the quality and lower the quantity available.

Nothing is free. You can't change that. People didn't make it that way. They found it that way, and that's the way it'll always be.

Crux note: Dan Ferris is the editor of Extreme Value. For serious long-term investors, it's one of the most useful advisories you can buy for any price. Learn more about Extreme Value here...
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Single payer is a stupid idea but there is no way Congress will ever go for any sort of real reform of the current system...that would require them to not only do actual work but also **** off the health care lobby. They aren't ambitious enough to both :p

What would be nice was if health care became not for profit...but then we would see how evil these companies really are because they would do nothing to improve the standard of living for people since they cant get rich on it.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._view_town_hall_protesters_favorably_35_don_t

Forty-one percent (41%) of U.S. voters have a favorable opinion of the people opposing health care reform at town hall meetings now being conducted by members of Congress, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.

But 35% view the protesters unfavorably. Twenty-three percent (23%) are not sure what they think of them.

Senior Democrats charge that many of the protests at the town hall meetings are orchestrated by special interests, but 49% of voters believe, generally speaking, that the protesting citizens are reflecting the concerns of their neighbors.


:eek:


Rasmussen? I think Dems will wait to maybe see a less slanted poll. ;)
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

The genius weighs in.

Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin called President Barack Obama's health plan "downright evil" on Friday in her first online comments since leaving office.
 
I was making more of a generalization about dealing with the federal bureaucracy. Whatever the feds may outsource to third parties, it's never a picnic dealing directly with the nameless, pencil pushing GSs. So, feel free to unbunch your Hanes.

You didn't generalize you made a specific assertion (which was widely uneducated and innacurate), and nothing was bunched - I simply asked an unemotional question. No mad smilies or exclamation points were hurt in the making of that post.
 
Now Dems who may have considered opposing the legislation have a big reason to put aside their differences just to screw the activists causing these disruptions.

Instead they should take the high road and lead the charge to instill civil discourse into the processions.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Another take on health care and socialism:

-----------------------------------------------

Socialism in Medicine
Since we’re kind of on the subject of health care reform, I have a few thoughts on the whole socialism in medicine issue also.

One of the most important insights of the Austrian School of Economics is the extraordinary complexity of the free market. It is so complex that no single individual, no committee, and no computer program can account for more than a tiny fraction of the factors that drive a modern economy.

Friedrich Hayek, a Nobel Prize-winning economist, made this the central point of his writings for the last 35 years of his life. He proved that only through the private property social order and the free interplay of pricing can society become the beneficiary of the market’s (masses of individuals) enormous quantities of relevant knowledge. There is no possible way that a committee of salaried bureaucrats can plan an entire economy or even one industry. Ergo, socialized medicine will not work anywhere ever. These schemes will inevitably lead to rationing of care, a lack of adequate medical equipment and supplies, skyrocketing costs, and a general increase in patients’ dissatisfaction.

The fact that socialized medicine cannot work has not stopped the socialist-progressives from giving it the old college try – over and over, and over again. During the past fifty years, most of the industrialized world (including the U.S., but to a lesser degree) has socialized its medical industries.

Under a policy of socialized medicine, capital investment in new technologies like an MRI machine is considered a cost rather than an income-producing asset that reduces real costs. William L. Anderson’s “Socialism and Medicine, Part 2,” published in the June 2008 Freedom Daily, provides a detailed analysis of this issue. In the article, Anderson cites a column by Paul Krugman, the well-known economist for the New York Times and Princeton University, who recently declared that medical care in the United States is costly because of high-quality medical capital such as MRI and CAT scan devices. His reasoning (or rather, the lack thereof) follows:

- Those devices are expensive.


- Doctors charge a lot for tests from those machines, since the devices are costly.


- Because the tests are expensive, they drive up health care costs.


- If you want to have less expensive medical care, then you do away with such expensive items or more strictly ration them.


No “economist” can be forgiven for constructing such a faulty chain of economic logic.

Most importantly, Krugman neglects to consider what high-quality medical capital devices like the MRI replace. In a matter of minutes and without the use of a scalpel, they allow doctors to perform exploratory surgery and diagnose countless disorders for a large number of people. Before the creation of such devices, doctors had to perform invasive procedures that took infinitely longer to perform and for which there was a recovery period for the patient. Diagnosing such problems today is done at a fraction of the total costs that used to be involved.

Krugman erroneously appeals to the discredited cost-of-production theory of value. Carl Menger conclusively demonstrated that demand for the final product is what gives value to production and capital goods, not the other way around. Technical jargon aside, this concept is essential in explaining why Krugman and others like him advocate the policies they do and why they are so wrong when they do so. An economist’s theory of value is what guides all aspects of his or her work. If his underlying theory is fallacious, all his conclusions will be too.

What happens when people like Krugman are taken seriously? An excerpt from Anderson’s aforementioned article helps clarify.

I work in Allegany County, Maryland, and we have three MRI devices in this county of about 80,000 people. I have had two MRIs done, which were performed the same week my doctor scheduled them for me. Montreal, Canada, on the other hand, has about 3.6 million people in its metropolitan area, and there are also three MRI devices, one for more than a million people. Anyone needing an MRI there has to wait at least six months.

Why the difference? The answer lies in the somewhat obscure fact that under a socialistic system, capital becomes a liability rather than an asset. The reason is that under a system of private profit, capital is used by its owners to provide an income; in socialism, capital does not provide an income to anyone. Rather, it is an expense item and nothing else.
Thus, demand for high-tech medical care equipment plummets under such a system, R&D to create new such machines stops, manufacturers go out of business, and people die.

With all that said, I apologize if I came across as too preachy in today’s missive. That was not my intention. Certain issues just really fire me up more than others.

And that, dear readers, is that for today.

See you tomorrow in the weekend edition. In the meantime, thank you for reading and for being a subscriber to a Casey Research service.

Chris Wood
Casey Research, LLC
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

That sounds nice, but it rings hollow in view of the fact that some 1,800 people were arrested during the 2004 Republican National Convention for doing just that.

Incorrect. They were arrested for breaking the law WHILE doing that. But you go ahead and ignore that if you like. You certainly don't need my permission.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Be a doctor and a constituent, ask a question, get yelled at and name called by your Democrat congressman.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/webl...a-democrat-rages-against-local-doctor-over-h/

Wow the faux outrage is at all time highs. It was an honest mistake lets not make it out to be bigger than it is. Maybe if the GOP didn't sponsor the astroturf hijacking of town hall meetings the doctor wouldn't have had his widdle feewings hurt :p
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

This "astroturf" meme is ridiculous... "astroturf" usually refers to paid, fake, supporters of a political movement typically residing on various internet forums. The king of this (as stated before the 2008 election) is, supposedly, David Axelrod... yes, that Axelrod that works for the President.

People voicing their own opinions is not astroturf... and to claim that any organization that suggests meetings is astroturf then it renders nearly the entire liberal grass-roots as astroturf so one has to be careful about how they use that meme.

There's some power in dismissing your opponents as not real or lying. Nobody has ever truly accused the left of being as such... and its calling these people out as inauthentic... unless there's some **** good proof on these people (1 picture doesn't count) then its a gross insult to our intelligence.

What I'm hearing out of the liberals is that "these are them and they must be destroyed/defeated". I thought liberals were against such dichotimizations of people.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Wow the faux outrage is at all time highs. It was an honest mistake lets not make it out to be bigger than it is. Maybe if the GOP didn't sponsor the astroturf hijacking of town hall meetings the doctor wouldn't have had his widdle feewings hurt :p

Yes, fake outrage... people get really fake outraged when you mess with their health plans and their personal security. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Yes, fake outrage... people get really fake outraged when you mess with their health plans and their personal security. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oh geez I meant the people upset that the doctor got insulted not the people who are upset about the health care bill. Untangle your panties :p

I don't know how many times I can say I don't support the health care bill but I will one more time just so even walrus can understand it...I DO NOT, IN ANY WAY, SUPPORT THE HEALTH CARE BILL OR SINGLE PAYER HEALTH INSURANCE! :D

And grass roots campaigns are great, and the doctor who had his feewings huwt didn't deserve it because he was asking honest questions and that is what the right thing to do is. If you watch these town hall meetings though and see them as any sort of grassroots campaign then I don't know what to tell you. Asking legit questions and allowing for response is how the process is supposed to work...standing up and screaming nonsense (a lot of which is just made up) and allowing for no response or other people to be involved in the "discussion" is BS and that is what has been going on of late. This time it is the GOP and other times its the Dems no one is innocent they all pull this crap...it is what is wrong with politics and why I will never support either party.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

A little more Astroturf exposed in this article (highlights are mine):

From NBC's Chuck Todd
Pres. Obama holds his OWN town hall in New Hampshire this Tuesday where the issues of the economy and health care are likely to be the dominant issues. Of course, what many will be watching is to see if this town hall invites the same passion as we've witnessed at town halls for members of Congress this last week.

I suspect we'll see some interesting back-n-forths both in the town hall itself and outside the venue. First, New Hampshire (and New England in general) arguably invented the entire town hall meeting concept so Granite Staters take these forums VERY seriously.

And as much as some might want to believe the White House will be staging the questions, don't believe that hype. The White House knows the political price for being caught doing that is MUCH higher than having to deal with a confrontation or two at the meeting itself. If anything, I'd bet some inside the White House are hoping for a confrontation since they believe the president's demeanor alone will politically play well with the folks the White House cares most about right now, ACTUAL independents.

BTW, here's one invitation NBC News has gotten their hands on from a group rallying against the president. This is from the New Hampshire Republican Volunteer Coalition:

NHRVC members and others,

Barack Hussein Obama will be arriving in Portsmouth on Tuesday to hold a STAGED "Town Hall Meeting", where he will essentially hand pick who the guests will be and what types of questions will be asked of him.

A MASSIVE protest rally is being organized just outside of the facility where Obama will be holding his "Town Hall Meeting" to promote his plan for a government takeover of your healthcare decisions.
There will be news media from all over the world at this event and it will be the ideal opportunity for us to tell the rest of the country exactly how NH voters feel about Obamacare (taxed/rationed healthcare). It will be the most important pro-liberty event of the year in NH and it is critically important that every one of us attend.

If you can, bring a sign that says something like, "OBAMACARE=TAXED/RATIONED HEALTHCARE", etc.Come anytime between 8am-4pm (peak time will be 11am-4pm)

See you there!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yup, just spontaneous outrage by regular ol' citizens.:rolleyes:
 
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