America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

The health insurance bill won't be implemented for 4 years (2013), assuming it is approved. We should be eliminating fraud, waste and abuse now.

Only the public option would be delayed until 2013; the rest would become active at signing (AFAIK).

I think you're onto a fair criticism, though. Framing is everything in politics, and Obama's framing is a comparison of his plan with doing nothing. Is that a fair comparison? Well... it's a clear one, anyway, but it would be much more transparent to break down the anticipated cost and savings of every separable portion of the proposal. Some things may not be separable -- having a public option and having an insurance mandate are probably intertwined. But WFA is separable, and as you've said it ought to be an ongoing initiative everywhere in government and private business and our own personal budgets. This is a little like my daughter saying that even though our insurance went up $50 a month for an accident, she's going to save us $1000 each month she doesn't get into another accident. Um... no.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

The. Right. Doesn't. Matter.

Mr. Obama's party has majorities in the House and Senate (a filibuster-proof one in the Senate no less).

If he's right, why does he need the R's? His party should be running this through like crap through a goose.

However, his own house (or is that House?) is not aligned enough to pass this legislation. So why are the R's even an issue? The D's must be able to see that Mr. Obama is right. Why isn't his party following in lock-step with him?

Don't blame the R's for being "obstructionist".

Mr. Obama's party has the power and the majorities. Yet, they are not doing this for him. ... Why?

Fear. You seem to have forgotten that a lot of Democrats who got elected this time around got elected in right leaning districts. Many of those Democrats ran on God, gays, and guns just like they were a rightie.

So, whatever "majority" you think there is right now is basically a mirage. People are voting their fears, and they fear getting stomped in 2010.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

LOL

No one ever says boo about all the money going overseas though. Let's just impeach him, after all he's a LIAR.

King of Hype - no one is talking about impeaching anyone. Obama and others on the Hill insult me every day and get away with it. Turnabout is fair play. Glad someone has the nuts to speak up.

"money" going overseas is the least of our concerns. How about dime on the dollar t-bills to China to leverage our debt....or more jobs?

Seems to me he opened the door to all ideas and took on some Republican proposals during his speech.

The bottom line is the right doesn't want him to get this done. Why? Votes. So, their strategy is to block instead of compromise. It's apparent in their rhetoric and approach. It was talked about yesterday in the thread that the Republicans have 3 Bills out there on this and it's not being covered by the media. Well, as it was pointed out those Bills are not being promoted by the GOP either because they don't want a Bill.

Frankly I hope we just bury our head in the sand and pretend their isn't a problem so it gets worse than it already is. It would match what my State has done on every issue that has come before it since Jesse Ventura took office and now continued with Tim Pawlenty.

Holy hypocrisy. Dude - you live in a vast land of blue. Quit blaming your woes on a handful of repubs and a token indy.

Too bad TORT isn't on the table. No surprise there considering the $ Obama & Co. get from the legal lobby.

Funny how you are always able to find a justification for the things you loathed just a few years ago. You are the personification of modern day politics! Everything is wrong until people I support do it, then it is ok

Funny how no matter how much you post, it doesn't make sense and comes from a point of utter lack of experience and knowledge.

 

[MattS]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

1700 of the 3700 words are the explicit policy section. That's 46% or about 27 minutes of the 60 minute speech. I'm confident that compares favorably with major policy speeches given by any recent president.

Hmmm, by my count his speech was just over 5400 words and, again, by my count about 1500 or so of it was substance about the Healthcare plan. Or as you want to put it about 27% substance. Not much in my opinion. I expected more.

So don't blame the R's for being "obstructionist": Mr. Obama's party has the power and the majorities. Yet, they are not doing this for him. ... Why?

Because the far left want a government run single payer and the moderates want to get re-elected. So some are all upset and some are nervous and still can't make up their minds.

Or on the other hand we could think that actually care and want to get the best bill they can passed.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Too bad TORT isn't on the table. No surprise there considering the $ Obama & Co. get from the legal lobby.
.

As far as I know it is, and it was mentioned in the speech last night. So, what speech did you watch?

Oh, and I don't have any woes over this. I could give a rip if it gets passed or doesn't pass.

 

[French Rage]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Booing is dignified.

I was saying "Boo-ush! Boo-ush!".

 

[Handyman]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Funny how no matter how much you post, it doesn't make sense and comes from a point of utter lack of experience and knowledge.

Well then explain how in just a few short years you went from hating everyone who ever questioned the president to someone who now defends it. Come on...educate me since I apparently lack knowledge. Do you have the balls to do it without sidestepping it, I think we all know you don't

If you want I will let you watch Bill O'Reilly tonight and see what excuse he comes up with so you can frame it that way! I am sure the No Spin Hypocrite will have nothing but wonderful things to say about how it is patriotic to hate Obama while he said such things were on par with treason when Jr. ran the Country!

We will all be waiting...come on man show us what ya got!

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

So, whatever "majority" you think there is right now is basically a mirage. People are voting their fears, and they fear getting stomped in 2010.

Ding the bell.
Winner-winner-chick dinner.

And nothing makes me happier than politicians in fear of the electorate, the people, the true holders of power.

(And I believe you just tacitly admitted that the majority of Americans don't want Congress swimming, or whatever they do, in this pool.)

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Ding the bell.
Winner-winner-chick dinner.

And nothing makes me happier than politicians in fear of the electorate, the people, the true holders of power.

(And I believe you just tacitly admitted that the majority of Americans don't want Congress swimming, or whatever they do, in this pool.)

True, but they sure didn't fear us when we wanted out of Iraq.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

True, but they sure didn't fear us when we wanted out of Iraq.

And look what the R's got for that.

That's where the fear is rooted: The electorate has shown they're more than willing to slap hard and turn on a dime. And it's just as easy to benefit as get punished by it.

Mr. Bush not getting out of Iraq is what cost the R's the election. Not the economy. And the economy is what should have run him out. (He overspent.)

Mr. Obama's continued tilting at the cap-and-trade and health care windmills will cost him. Why? Because people want jobs to be talked about right now, not more government regulations or programs. Jobs.

Fix the labor market and Mr. Obama fixes that and health care (as most jobs provide some level). And as a bonus tax revenues go up too.

People vote their wallets or their frustrations. Woe be to the one who irks both.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

And look what the R's got for that.

That's where the fear is rooted: The electorate has shown they're more than willing to slap hard and turn on a dime. And it's just as easy to benefit as get punished by it.

I wouldn't call giving GW 4 more years turning on a dime, but I'm with ya.

 

[ScottM]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

And nothing makes me happier than politicians in fear of the electorate, the people, the true holders of power.

(And I believe you just tacitly admitted that the majority of Americans don't want Congress swimming, or whatever they do, in this pool.)

"People should not fear their government. Government should fear their people." -V for Vendetta

If the "public option" goes away or becomes a "nuclear option" of some sort, it may be enough to mollify Blue Dogs and others to get a deal done by year end. Which will, of course, p*** off the Pelosi Legion.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

I wouldn't call giving GW 4 more years turning on a dime, but I'm with ya.

The "out of Iraq" sentiment wasn't strong enough to run him out in 2004. It was in some quarters, but not nationally. And he really didn't start spending like a drunk sailor until second term.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

"People should not fear their government. Government should fear their people." -V for Vendetta

If the "public option" goes away or becomes a "nuclear option" of some sort, it may be enough to mollify Blue Dogs and others to get a deal done by year end. Which will, of course, p*** off the Pelosi Legion.

You've nailed why I think the D's should be called a coalition, not a party.

The Blue Muts have little in common with Pelosi's (whatever they are).

Welcome to pseudo-coalition government by the D's.

Good luck herding all those cats Mr. Obama.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Huh?

So You Think You Can Dance got 6.465 million viewers, while Obama's speech got 7.4 million viewers on ABC, 5.63 million on CBS, and 8.16 million on NBC. And that's just the Big Three networks, to say nothing of the cable networks.

DOH! Red Cloud, you've just been called out as a BS artist. Any response?

Sicatoka,

I'll reiterate a couple of things I've mentioned before. First is that this was never going to be easy. If reforming health care was, we'd have had a bill 60 years ago to do so. Its an issue that lends itself easily to fearmongering, crackpot theories, and overanalysis. However, look at the big picture. When has the country ever been this close to a deal?

Next, Obama rightly engaged in some bipartisanship, because as you say the electorate asked for it. Its a fine line to walk between when to continue negotiating and when to cut it off because you're being played by obstructionists. Stop too early and you run the risk of partisanship (a charge that as of right now the public applies more to the GOP than Obama). Negotiate too long and the opposition gets to play out the string in the hopes that the Dems lose their nerve. Its reasonable to say that Obama stuck with negotiations a little too long. However, he seems to be closing in on one now. Remember, the victors get to write the history books. Pass this legislation - the biggest domestic policy effort in 40+ years, and those Dem majorities did what they were elected to do.

 

[MattS]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Pass this legislation - the biggest domestic policy effort in 40+ years, and those Dem majorities did what they were elected to do.

Come on now....There isn't a single Dem in Congress specifically elected to fix health care.

 

[ScottM]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Pass this legislation - the biggest domestic policy effort in 40+ years, and those Dem majorities did what they were elected to do.

Try to cover their *****es before the next election?

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

You've nailed why I think the D's should be called a coalition, not a party.

The Blue Muts have little in common with Pelosi's (whatever they are).

Welcome to pseudo-coalition government by the D's.

Good luck herding all those cats Mr. Obama.

In our system, major parties are coalitions. The only time a party is purist is when it's a regionally or ideologically isolated third party.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Come on now....There isn't a single Dem in Congress specifically elected to fix health care.

Not specifically, but it was a top agenda item.

The way I see it, to not pass comprehensive reform would be to misuse this opportunity. Fillibuster proof majorities are rare. Voters knew if they elected Obama and even more Dems in 08, they would get this effort to fix the health care system. Really the party is just fulfilling their duty. If you wanted to elect people to give lip service to problems but not actually do anything about them, why not just re-elected the GOP Congress?

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

In our system, major parties are coalitions. The only time a party is purist is when it's a regionally or ideologically isolated third party.

You mean like today's Republican party?