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5 dollar gas...are we ready?
- Thread starter unh_hockey
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unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Not sure. Last I heard, price on crude dropped – there was an article about it. It seems they have not only rebounded, but continued their upward trend. I’d be lying if I said I had much of an idea of the short term market forces that drive oil up and down.
Count down until driving almost over 2 weeks and change. I’ll have a few weeks off, than I start my bike ride commute to work in the middle of summer in scenic Portsmouth NH. But first, I have to use that money I would have spent on gas to drive to buy a suitable road bike. Hmm
In other news, Robert Bryce eviscerated Obama on his web page again. The topic of discussion was how he plans to cut subsidies to oil ( fair), but continue to fund corn ethanol. Bryce’s stance is the same as mine - cut all subsidies and let them compete in a market freely. He doesn’t knock the oil subsidies so much as wonders why such inefficient biofuels like wood, switch grass, and corn are allowed to continue to receive funding. FWIW in order to replace 10% of our oil consumption, we would need corn fields the size of Oklahoma. The logistics to farm all of that would be…monstrous…
Not sure. Last I heard, price on crude dropped – there was an article about it. It seems they have not only rebounded, but continued their upward trend. I’d be lying if I said I had much of an idea of the short term market forces that drive oil up and down.
Count down until driving almost over 2 weeks and change. I’ll have a few weeks off, than I start my bike ride commute to work in the middle of summer in scenic Portsmouth NH. But first, I have to use that money I would have spent on gas to drive to buy a suitable road bike. Hmm
In other news, Robert Bryce eviscerated Obama on his web page again. The topic of discussion was how he plans to cut subsidies to oil ( fair), but continue to fund corn ethanol. Bryce’s stance is the same as mine - cut all subsidies and let them compete in a market freely. He doesn’t knock the oil subsidies so much as wonders why such inefficient biofuels like wood, switch grass, and corn are allowed to continue to receive funding. FWIW in order to replace 10% of our oil consumption, we would need corn fields the size of Oklahoma. The logistics to farm all of that would be…monstrous…
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
well, I'd say that the simple lack of land that is suitable for growing corn would be more of a hurdle. If we planted that much we'd just simply need more equipment (I'm sure John Deere and Agco would be happy to oblige) and more people to run the equipment. Storage is a mute point, as we're already storing corn in piles outdoors with little problems.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Just curious, but what do you think is currently going on out here in large swaths of Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, and the like, if not farming and ranching? Of all the issues involved with ethanol, you think logistics is even a remote concern?
Just curious, but what do you think is currently going on out here in large swaths of Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, and the like, if not farming and ranching? Of all the issues involved with ethanol, you think logistics is even a remote concern?
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
More people to run the equipment? That'd solve the welfare issue.
More people to run the equipment? That'd solve the welfare issue.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
the irony here is that we'd be burning petrol in tractors to harvest corn ethanol to blend into petrol so we can ruin tractors. Due to the massive land use, and production requirements, some wonder if corn ethanol is WORSE than petrol for the environment.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html
How about the fact that to fill a 25 gallon SUV with pure corn ethanol, one could take that corn and feed a person for a year.
http://www.counterpunch.org/bryce03022007.html
the irony here is that we'd be burning petrol in tractors to harvest corn ethanol to blend into petrol so we can ruin tractors. Due to the massive land use, and production requirements, some wonder if corn ethanol is WORSE than petrol for the environment.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html
How about the fact that to fill a 25 gallon SUV with pure corn ethanol, one could take that corn and feed a person for a year.
http://www.counterpunch.org/bryce03022007.html
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Clearly nothing, it's just fly-over country anyway.
I suspect that something was lost in translation with that quote.
I have a hard time believing that we don't farm corn on an area of land the size of OK (or larger). I don't believe that we could dedicate that much land to energy production at the expense of food production (mostly animal feed, as opposed to direct human corn consumption).
Clearly nothing, it's just fly-over country anyway.
I suspect that something was lost in translation with that quote.
I have a hard time believing that we don't farm corn on an area of land the size of OK (or larger). I don't believe that we could dedicate that much land to energy production at the expense of food production (mostly animal feed, as opposed to direct human corn consumption).
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
I'd be on the side that thinks Corn Ethanol is worse for the environment then good old fashioned pump from the ground crude oil.
I'd be on the side that thinks Corn Ethanol is worse for the environment then good old fashioned pump from the ground crude oil.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
From an energy stand point, and from a carbon emissions stand point. if the idea is to cut DOWN on energy consumption, but promote a net negative energy feedstock...isn't that counter productive? Remember, I am always thinking in terms of energy density, and net energy production. ( why spend X to make energy which produces Y, if X is greater than Y).
No food for fuel...
From an energy stand point, and from a carbon emissions stand point. if the idea is to cut DOWN on energy consumption, but promote a net negative energy feedstock...isn't that counter productive? Remember, I am always thinking in terms of energy density, and net energy production. ( why spend X to make energy which produces Y, if X is greater than Y).
No food for fuel...
unofan
Well-known member
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Right, but that has nothing to do with logistics. The land itself is already being farmed or lying fallow and ready to be farmed (or ranched). The logistics are actually straightforward. It'd just be stupid to turn that much food crop into an energy crop.
Right, but that has nothing to do with logistics. The land itself is already being farmed or lying fallow and ready to be farmed (or ranched). The logistics are actually straightforward. It'd just be stupid to turn that much food crop into an energy crop.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
It is. the energy density of a oil well ( even the ones which are producing trace amounts) are magnitudes higher. How much? I can post that if I do the research. im firing from the hip here as you can probably tell.
and yes, our energy policy is sad. Just sad. PuThink of it simply this way. Corn ethanol can replace at most 1% supply of our fuels - not reduce demand, but replace. I wonder how many more people, or how much cheaper we could make food prices instead. Food isn't cheap now, and the prices are rising, even in 2011
It is. the energy density of a oil well ( even the ones which are producing trace amounts) are magnitudes higher. How much? I can post that if I do the research. im firing from the hip here as you can probably tell.
and yes, our energy policy is sad. Just sad. PuThink of it simply this way. Corn ethanol can replace at most 1% supply of our fuels - not reduce demand, but replace. I wonder how many more people, or how much cheaper we could make food prices instead. Food isn't cheap now, and the prices are rising, even in 2011
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
right ,we already use more land. its an issue I am sure environmentalists are working on continuously to improve.
not sure if you were around for my other threads, but I am a strong promotor of the potential of microalgae as a fuel feedstock. In short, it uses the worst land known, has much higher (potential) energy densities, can actually produce clean water, and can work in existing infrastucture. Read more about it on my other posts if your interested. Its actually really cool.
right ,we already use more land. its an issue I am sure environmentalists are working on continuously to improve.
not sure if you were around for my other threads, but I am a strong promotor of the potential of microalgae as a fuel feedstock. In short, it uses the worst land known, has much higher (potential) energy densities, can actually produce clean water, and can work in existing infrastucture. Read more about it on my other posts if your interested. Its actually really cool.
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
I think it's mostly speculation. Maybe there's a bit of demand exceeding supply thrown in, but is demand really up that much? I haven't heard of any major encroachments on supply, at least not before the flooding along the Mississippi.
I do not believe the current crack spread is sustainable. Gas prices are way out of whack. It's terrific for the company I work for, because we do a lot of work for refineries and they're raking in the dough, but I can't imagine it will last.
I think it's mostly speculation. Maybe there's a bit of demand exceeding supply thrown in, but is demand really up that much? I haven't heard of any major encroachments on supply, at least not before the flooding along the Mississippi.
I do not believe the current crack spread is sustainable. Gas prices are way out of whack. It's terrific for the company I work for, because we do a lot of work for refineries and they're raking in the dough, but I can't imagine it will last.
bigblue_dl
Armed
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
I spoke too soon.
Ethanol ruins smaller motors, such as boats, and landscaping equipment. Basically a blend at 10% adds water which changes the fuel chemistry, which in turn changes combustion characteristics. Cars mitigate this since they have sensors which adjust the stoichiometry of the fuel mixture. Tractors might be okay, but there is anecdotal evidence that suggests that a higher blend rate is ruining smaller motors.
I spoke too soon.
Ethanol ruins smaller motors, such as boats, and landscaping equipment. Basically a blend at 10% adds water which changes the fuel chemistry, which in turn changes combustion characteristics. Cars mitigate this since they have sensors which adjust the stoichiometry of the fuel mixture. Tractors might be okay, but there is anecdotal evidence that suggests that a higher blend rate is ruining smaller motors.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Given the prices that you see on the stock markets correspond to the last price at which the particular item (at any amount of shares) was sold, that would explain the speculation. However, I have a feeling there are other factors that are to be considered, such as delivery, refining costs, taxes, not to mention profits that took a big hit in 2006-2008 because the gas stations were trying to entice people to get their product at a low price, when if normal profit practices were in place the whole time that gas would have been about $5 per gallon...
Given the prices that you see on the stock markets correspond to the last price at which the particular item (at any amount of shares) was sold, that would explain the speculation. However, I have a feeling there are other factors that are to be considered, such as delivery, refining costs, taxes, not to mention profits that took a big hit in 2006-2008 because the gas stations were trying to entice people to get their product at a low price, when if normal profit practices were in place the whole time that gas would have been about $5 per gallon...
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
And I understand the A/F argument, that is what I work on everyday at work. Yeah, running too lean can kill small engines, but that is mostly a 2 stroke problem, and not one that I've ever seen caused by running with ethanol. Around where I come from everyone uses gasoline with ethanol blended in small engines (snowmobiles, 4-wheelers, chainsaws, lawnmowers, weed whips, utility engines, etc) and we've never seen a problem. The stoich A/F of gasoline is 14.7, while the stoich A/F of ethanol is 9. If you're mixing 10% ethanol, that brings the stoich A/F down to about 14.1, which can be a significant amount. Cars deal with this by using O2 sensors to adjust A/F as the EGO gets too low, small engines do not. This is where the assertion that running with E10 can hurt small engines come in, and I'll admit, it is a valid argument, I just don't buy it. First of all, I would expect any small engine without an O2 sensor to be carbureted. On a carbureted engine, the A/F is determined by the jetting, and the A/F is not very consistant when controlled this way, I would expect small engines to be running on the rich side, due to this. It is better to error on the side of rich than lean, which is why you see people trying to get more performance out of small engines by using smaller jets and running lean. Overall, when I look at it, yes, the A/F is leaner when running E10, but I wouldn't expect it to be a problem, due to the way that a normal engine is setup. On the other side of the coin, if I had a performance small engine, in say a racing dirt bike or sled (ignoring the fact that these are already almost always setup to run 100% alcohol), I wouldn't use E10, because these engines are already tuned to run as lean as possible, running ethanol would probably make them run too lean and burn up the engine. On a normal engine, I don't see a problem, and if someone is actually worried about it, put in one size bigger jet, it takes about 5 minutes to do.
Tractors run on diesel...
And I understand the A/F argument, that is what I work on everyday at work. Yeah, running too lean can kill small engines, but that is mostly a 2 stroke problem, and not one that I've ever seen caused by running with ethanol. Around where I come from everyone uses gasoline with ethanol blended in small engines (snowmobiles, 4-wheelers, chainsaws, lawnmowers, weed whips, utility engines, etc) and we've never seen a problem. The stoich A/F of gasoline is 14.7, while the stoich A/F of ethanol is 9. If you're mixing 10% ethanol, that brings the stoich A/F down to about 14.1, which can be a significant amount. Cars deal with this by using O2 sensors to adjust A/F as the EGO gets too low, small engines do not. This is where the assertion that running with E10 can hurt small engines come in, and I'll admit, it is a valid argument, I just don't buy it. First of all, I would expect any small engine without an O2 sensor to be carbureted. On a carbureted engine, the A/F is determined by the jetting, and the A/F is not very consistant when controlled this way, I would expect small engines to be running on the rich side, due to this. It is better to error on the side of rich than lean, which is why you see people trying to get more performance out of small engines by using smaller jets and running lean. Overall, when I look at it, yes, the A/F is leaner when running E10, but I wouldn't expect it to be a problem, due to the way that a normal engine is setup. On the other side of the coin, if I had a performance small engine, in say a racing dirt bike or sled (ignoring the fact that these are already almost always setup to run 100% alcohol), I wouldn't use E10, because these engines are already tuned to run as lean as possible, running ethanol would probably make them run too lean and burn up the engine. On a normal engine, I don't see a problem, and if someone is actually worried about it, put in one size bigger jet, it takes about 5 minutes to do.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Appreciate the follow up. Again, spoke too soon on tractors. But also, I would like to point out the irony of needing petrol products to produce a product to eliminate the need for petrol. To be clear, I suggested anecdotal evidence that ethanol is damaging to some small engines. Blend rates that go higher have hurt the older ones from what I hear. As other posters like Walrus suggest, a different blend rate will also negatively affect storage.
Appreciate the follow up. Again, spoke too soon on tractors. But also, I would like to point out the irony of needing petrol products to produce a product to eliminate the need for petrol. To be clear, I suggested anecdotal evidence that ethanol is damaging to some small engines. Blend rates that go higher have hurt the older ones from what I hear. As other posters like Walrus suggest, a different blend rate will also negatively affect storage.
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