2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

I'll say. How many non-Christian presidents again?

One less than the number of Jewish PM's of Great Britain.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Which of course has almost nothing to do with the cultural tides in this country, which demonstrate what I say in spades.

On the contrary, it has everything to do with it, but religious conservatives feel entitled to it so it's just a ground condition that they make evaporate.

Losing unearned privilege is never easy, since in most cases the beneficiaries have never even considered a world where it doesn't exist -- it's just "the way things are." As the country really does accommodate other views than the age-old Haves, lots of stuff is going to become acceptable and even preferable than what we cranky old white males are comfortable with. The rest of the country has had to walk ten steps towards us to get anywhere through all American history. Now that we have to walk one step towards them some of us are wailing. I imagine our discomfort is giving all the other people of the country a nice laugh.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

On the contrary, it has everything to do with it, but religious conservatives feel entitled to it so it's just a ground condition that they make evaporate.

Losing unearned privilege is never easy, since in most cases the beneficiaries have never even considered a world where it doesn't exist -- it's just "the way things are." As the country really does accommodate other views than the age-old Haves, lots of stuff is going to become acceptable and even preferable than what we cranky old white males are comfortable with. The rest of the country has had to walk ten steps towards us to get anywhere through all American history. Now that we have to walk one step towards them some of us are wailing. I imagine our discomfort is giving all the other people of the country a nice laugh.

No. Just no. Presidents traditionally have identified as Christian because Christian mores predominated in this country. As those mores fade more and more, and in some cases become downright unpopular (to the point of being harassed for holding them), Presidents have less need to identify as Christian, with things now reaching a point where holding traditional Christian views on a number of subjects will be increasingly problematic to getting elected. Of course some will still make a pronouncement or two about being Christian to try to pull in a few votes, but the days of it being some thing you have to do in this country are fading if not gone. There is virtually nothing in public discourse and culture that reflects traditional Christian values at this point in time. Again, keep tilting at those windmills.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

There is virtually nothing in public discourse and culture that reflects traditional Christian values at this point in time.

Depends what you mean by "Christian values." The Christian concern for the poor is still very much alive on the left of this country, as is the Christian idea that all men are of equal value in the eyes of the Lord. The right may have left Christianity in their pursuit of wealth and power, but a few of us are gamely hanging on.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

No. Just no. Presidents traditionally have identified as Christian because Christian mores predominated in this country. As those mores fade more and more, and in some cases become downright unpopular (to the point of being harassed for holding them), Presidents have less need to identify as Christian, with things now reaching a point where holding traditional Christian views on a number of subjects will be increasingly problematic to getting elected. Of course some will still make a pronouncement or two about being Christian to try to pull in a few votes, but the days of it being some thing you have to do in this country are fading if not gone. There is virtually nothing in public discourse and culture that reflects traditional Christian values at this point in time. Again, keep tilting at those windmills.

It should be added that Christianity was used as a tool to pit the US citizens against the USSR, hence why "under God" was added to the propoganda of allegiance.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Depends what you mean by "Christian values." The Christian concern for the poor is still very much alive on the left of this country, as is the Christian idea that all men are of equal value in the eyes of the Lord. The right may have left Christianity in their pursuit of wealth and power, but a few of us are gamely hanging on.

And how much is concern for the poor and men being of equal value reflected in popular culture and public discourse? They are afterthoughts at best. But, glad to see you really aren't disputing my underlying contention. Tell me the last time there was a TV show that had a character positively portrayed and reflecting Christian beliefs? And citing TBN doesn't count. To the extent Christians are mentioned in TV, they are caricatures.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

And how much is concern for the poor and men being of equal value reflected in popular culture and public discourse? They are afterthoughts at best. But, glad to see you really aren't disputing my underlying contention. Tell me the last time there was a TV show that had a character positively portrayed and reflecting Christian beliefs? And citing TBN doesn't count. To the extent Christians are mentioned in TV, they are caricatures.

700 Club on ABC Family. Or how about EWTN?

As I've always said, though, the Romans took Christianity and screwed it up, so now we have what we have.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

And how much is concern for the poor and men being of equal value reflected in popular culture and public discourse? They are afterthoughts at best. But, glad to see you really aren't disputing my underlying contention. Tell me the last time there was a TV show that had a character positively portrayed and reflecting Christian beliefs? And citing TBN doesn't count. To the extent Christians are mentioned in TV, they are caricatures.

Bob, Christianity screwed up by associating itself too closely to one political party. That had the disasterous effect of politicizing the church, primarily starting in the 1980's. Having gone to church myself back in the day and for a time more recently, I don't want the priest/minister/rabbi/iman insinuating who I should vote for even if they back flaming liberals. Obviously repeated scandals haven't helped from cooking the books to covering up sexual abuse, but the decline in attendance started long before that. If churches collectively have lost sight of their mission and have turned into political vehicles for pandering politicians, then why would you be surprised if the populace decided to find their own way of worshiping whatever God they believe in?

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob, Christianity screwed up by associating itself too closely to one political party.

That wasn't "Christianity," it was just one very loud, vicious, narrow-minded portion of Christianity. Given the number of Christians in the country I'll bet a majority of Democrats are Christian. They just aren't this jackhole's version.

The funny thing about the evangelicals' victimization complex at the hands of the "secular humanists" is that the mainstream Christians are just are revolted by them.

But, as we all know, that means they aren't "really" Christians...

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

That wasn't "Christianity," it was just one very loud, vicious, narrow-minded portion of Christianity. Given the number of Christians in the country I'll bet a majority of Democrats are Christian. They just aren't this jackhole's version.

The funny thing about the evangelicals' victimization complex at the hands of the "secular humanists" is that the mainstream Christians are just are revolted by them.


But, as we all know, that means they aren't "really" Christians...

They ruined it for everybody else though, and its going to take churches at least a generation to fix that with positive outreach, something Catholic churches at least aren't good at. Figure based on polls about overturning Roe v Wade or gay marriage about 35-40% of people are social cons. Then weed out the Sunshine Christians who talk to talk but when it comes time to actually living a Christian lifestyle or going to church are nowhere to be found (Sen. Larry Craig picking up men in airport bathrooms, Morals Czar Bill Bennett and his million dollar gambling problem) and you're left with half of them - about the portion of the country that says they attend church regularly. It wasn't always like this as religion used to transcend political beliefs. Not anymore and you can thank that New Right-Moral Majority-Organized Christian Church alliance in the 80's for that.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

They ruined it for everybody else though, and its going to take churches at least a generation to fix that with positive outreach, something Catholic churches at least aren't good at.

There's always a tension between between those who observe The Law but lose The Message and those who follow The Message and if that puts them on the wrong side of The Law so be it. The organized churches don't matter -- the Catholics and Orthodox churches will s l o w l y turn like the immense aircraft carriers they are and eventually move into today's social currents -- in about 500 years , while the Protestant "churches" are all provisional and mercurial and don't matter anyway -- they'll all have been renamed, replaced, or just gone extinct in a century or less.

And for the meantime Christianity is going great guns in Africa and South America, and the South Koreans can't get enough of it. They'll do fine, but whites are going to be a small minority of Christians sooner rather than later. They may already be.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob, Christianity screwed up by associating itself too closely to one political party. That had the disasterous effect of politicizing the church, primarily starting in the 1980's. Having gone to church myself back in the day and for a time more recently, I don't want the priest/minister/rabbi/iman insinuating who I should vote for even if they back flaming liberals. Obviously repeated scandals haven't helped from cooking the books to covering up sexual abuse, but the decline in attendance started long before that. If churches collectively have lost sight of their mission and have turned into political vehicles for pandering politicians, then why would you be surprised if the populace decided to find their own way of worshiping whatever God they believe in?

They were driven to one political party by the other party's wholesale rejection and even at times mocking of their values. Most Christians I know don't like either political party, but as with so many of us, they hold their nose and vote for the lesser evil. They just measure the lesser evil differently than some other people. Really not that complicated.

The decline in attendance is a complicated issue with a number of different facets and I've actually commented on that in some detail around here somewhere pretty recently, but I don't think any political angle is the main driver.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

There's always a tension between between those who observe The Law but lose The Message and those who follow The Message and if that puts them on the wrong side of The Law so be it. The organized churches don't matter -- the Catholics and Orthodox churches will s l o w l y turn like the immense aircraft carriers they are and eventually move into today's social currents -- in about 500 years , while the Protestant "churches" are all provisional and mercurial and don't matter anyway -- they'll all have been renamed, replaced, or just gone extinct in a century or less.

And for the meantime Christianity is going great guns in Africa and South America, and the South Koreans can't get enough of it. They'll do fine, but whites are going to be a small minority of Christians sooner rather than later. They may already be.

They most certainly already are. I've read things saying that the nation with the most Christians (however that would be measured, which I'm not sure) is likely China.

That part of The Law and The Message lost me.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

The decline in attendance is a complicated issue with a number of different facets and I've actually commented on that in some detail around here somewhere pretty recently, but I don't think any political angle is the main driver.

I think you're right. Attendance flatlined in Europe and they had no major party nailing themselves up on the cross the way the GOP did.

The GOP-Thumper axis has a lot to answer for, but not decreasing church attendance.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

That part of The Law and The Message lost me.

That worries me. It's what Jesus was on about.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Gotta disagree on the politics-church cause of some of the decline. I personally know of people who grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, and it was a far, far different experience 40 years ago than it is now. The big difference is politics.

Regarding Bob's assertion of the lesser of two evils, I'm curious what people are supposed to think when the party of the lesser of two evils is made up of child molesters, people keeping two families, guys picking up men in airport bathrooms, anti-abortion congressmen paying for thier mistresses abortions, etc etc etc. I mean, really???

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

That worries me. It's what Jesus was on about.

I know of the terms "law" and "message", but I wasn't assuming I knew what you meant by them. My understanding of the two terms didn't connect with how you used them.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Gotta disagree on the politics-church cause of some of the decline. I personally know of people who grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, and it was a far, far different experience 40 years ago than it is now. The big difference is politics.

Regarding Bob's assertion of the lesser of two evils, I'm curious what people are supposed to think when the party of the lesser of two evils is made up of child molesters, people keeping two families, guys picking up men in airport bathrooms, anti-abortion congressmen paying for thier mistresses abortions, etc etc etc. I mean, really???

Conservatives say similar stuff about those who make up the Dem side of things. Thus the lesser evil angle.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Speaking of christian presidents and whatnot, it seems like it used to be when I was young that the pres would be photographed going to church with his family on Sunday morning, quite regularly. Is this still in fashion? Have our recent presidents done this, or saved it for Easter & Christmas?
I don't like mixing a person's religion with his politics, I think Obama strikes a good balance in that department. He seems to more or less keep it out of his public life and public remarks while being open about what has influenced him.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Speaking of christian presidents and whatnot, it seems like it used to be when I was young that the pres would be photographed going to church with his family on Sunday morning, quite regularly. Is this still in fashion? Have our recent presidents done this, or saved it for Easter & Christmas?
I don't like mixing a person's religion with his politics, I think Obama strikes a good balance in that department. He seems to more or less keep it out of his public life and public remarks while being open about what has influenced him.

Easter was always a big deal for public officials emerging from church (mostly because their wives wore the world's most ludicrous hats), but IINM the first president where it was a big deal to see him in church on a normal weekend was JFK, because, you know, Popery. I'm not sure Nixon was permitted on holy ground (see rules on vampires). Carter made a big deal of it because Born Again; Reagan probably faked his way through it like his ranch horseback riding sessions. By then the Thumpers had wormed their way into politics so since then it's been important to be filmed while being superstitious.