2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

[joecct]

My first thought when I heard about this "accident" was poor Rose Mary Woods taking the blame for an 18 1/2 minute gap on an audio tape.

My second thought was, who is this generation's Alexander Butterfield?

Better question is who is this generation's Woodward & Bernstein?

And the garage where they met with Deep Throat is being torn down for a office/apt building.

 

[XYZ]

It's because homosexuality can be thought of in more than one way. Therefore someone can read it in another way than the question was intended. When you step back to look at the bigger picture and consider the ways that "homosexuality" can be defined as an identity, an inclination, a lifestyle, a sex act, etc., it's far from a very simple question. Hence all the angst over answering it.
Imagine, if you will, that I brought Priceless home and we made sweet love until it got light outside. That would be homosexual. Would it make me "a" homosexual? Not unless he's incredibly talented. The first one is a choice.
There are also an unknown but high proportion of people who start out some shade of bi who end up "choosing" to identify exclusively one way or the other depending on their circumstances. Then it's a choice.
Here's a good essay to read before you tell a gay person that they don't have a choice:
"Should queer people only receive equal protection under the law if we can prove that we're born this way and can't help it? Or do we perhaps deserve equal dignity simply because there's nothing wrong with being queer, and because how we live doesn't violate anyone else's rights?"

Since I could substitute "heterosexual" for "homosexual" in your first part and everything stands pat, I'm not sure what the point is. For example, I can choose to be a heterosexual yet still place someone's nutbag in my mouth? Ok, great? And now what?

As for the quote at the end, it needs to make up its mind. Are we worried about equal protection here or equal dignity? Because they are different questions which thus have different answers. In your situation, anyone who is an American citizen deserves equal protection under the law. As far as dignity goes...far more complex. That must derive from society itself. And all sorts of do-gooders can run around patting themselves on the back while they try to force it to happen, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. As hard as any individual, entity, or government power tries to force it, it's all a charade until society itself inherently grants it -- an organic thing, really. Which it largely has at this point. Deal with it.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

This thread has gotten very bizarre and awkward since I last read it.

 

[joecct]

This thread has gotten very bizarre and awkward since I last read it.

Gone a bit off the rails, IMO.

 

[ericredaxe]

This thread has gotten very bizarre and awkward since I last read it.

The only thing that makes it bizarre and akward is the apparent fact that there are highish profile people in US politics that seem to equate sexual orientation to alcoholism, and that the idea of "praying the gay away" is somehow a legitimate concept.

But you are correct, this discussion might for better in the "I can't believe I share a planet with these people" thread.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

So, let me get this straight....gays erased Lois Lerner's e-mails and the Vatican approves of it? Is that about right?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

So, let me get this straight....gays, working in conjunction with Chelsea Clinton, erased Lois Lerner's e-mails and the Vatican approves of it? Is that about right?

No, see my edit above

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

No, see my edit above

Got it, although I still don't see how Nixon plays into this, unless he was caught on tape secretly supporting gay marriage!

Opie - help us out here.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Got it, although I still don't see how Nixon plays into this, unless he was caught on tape secretly supporting gay marriage!

Maybe he did when he was drunk, since the two go hand-in-hand according to a certain Republican governor.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

So, putting debate about what should / should not have been done in the past aside....

Opinions on what the best move in Iraq is right now?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

So, putting debate about what should / should not have been done in the past aside....

Opinions on what the best move in Iraq is right now?

We stay the **** out of it. We went in there in error, spent the next 11 years trying to re-establish a working govt, complete with security forces and an army. We've meddled in their lives enough, it's time for them to work out their own issues.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

So, putting debate about what should / should not have been done in the past aside....

Opinions on what the best move in Iraq is right now?

Divide up the country. The former Yugoslavia should serve as a template for resolving conflict for all countries dealing with sectarian violence. Meaning, it doesn't apply in a place like Afghanistan which is a different problem but in a place where people were thrown together in artificial borders drawn up by some long passed overlord, let the go to their respective corners and call it a day. Its far better than a civil war.

So, its real simple: 1) Malaki resigns, 2) Reps from all three sides come together to come up with new borders, 3) Cease fire in the meantime. 4) If ANY party objects, deal is off and have fun killing each other. Putting aside the past as you say, going forward this place is no longer our problem, and we should not spend one more life or dime on it.

 

[joecct]

Divide up the country. The former Yugoslavia should serve as a template for resolving conflict for all countries dealing with sectarian violence. Meaning, it doesn't apply in a place like Afghanistan which is a different problem but in a place where people were thrown together in artificial borders drawn up by some long passed overlord, let the go to their respective corners and call it a day. Its far better than a civil war.

So, its real simple: 1) Malaki resigns, 2) Reps from all three sides come together to come up with new borders, 3) Cease fire in the meantime. 4) If ANY party objects, deal is off and have fun killing each other. Putting aside the past as you say, going forward this place is no longer our problem, and we should not spend one more life or dime on it.

Would united tribes be stronger than 3 or so separate tribal states?

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Would united tribes be stronger than 3 or so separate tribal states?

If you can unite the tribes. I don't see that happening. Like Yugoslavia, its kinda tough to have the other side kill 100,000 of your side but then live with them afterwards like nothing happened. I would reward the Kurds be giving them their own country first as they seem to be the only decent people over there. Not sure how much the other two sides overlap in terms of territory. Yes some people will get screwed but its better than yet another wholesale war.

For me, it would be a final offer. Either take it or blow yourselves up.

 

[joecct]

If you can unite the tribes. I don't see that happening. Like Yugoslavia, its kinda tough to have the other side kill 100,000 of your side but then live with them afterwards like nothing happened. I would reward the Kurds be giving them their own country first as they seem to be the only decent people over there. Not sure how much the other two sides overlap in terms of territory. Yes some people will get screwed but its better than yet another wholesale war.

For me, it would be a final offer. Either take it or blow yourselves up.

They'll go boom then. Blood is thicker than country over there.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

We stay the **** out of it. We went in there in error, spent the next 11 years trying to re-establish a working govt, complete with security forces and an army. We've meddled in their lives enough, it's time for them to work out their own issues.

Divide up the country.

I sit somewhere in between these two. I think we should definitely stay the **** out of it but at the same time I think it's important to realize that when we tried to divide up the country after WWI, we ****ed up. I say let the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis each have their own fully recognized states. How we get from point A (where we are today) to point B (a divided country), I have no idea. What I don't want is boots on the ground.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

For me, it would be a final offer. Either take it or blow yourselves up.

I think this is an appropriate offer. (Seriously.)

 

[St. Clown]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

If you can unite the tribes. I don't see that happening. Like Yugoslavia, its kinda tough to have the other side kill 100,000 of your side but then live with them afterwards like nothing happened. I would reward the Kurds be giving them their own country first as they seem to be the only decent people over there. Not sure how much the other two sides overlap in terms of territory. Yes some people will get screwed but its better than yet another wholesale war.

For me, it would be a final offer. Either take it or blow yourselves up.

If we setup a Kurd-only nation we're going to upset Turkey something fierce. They have a large Kurd minority in the eastern portion of their country that have been clamoring and minorly rebelling for years. Setting up some sort of Kurdistan nation would just be throwing salt on an open wound for them. We'd lose Turkish support in pretty much all foreign affairs. It's best that we just stay out of it and let the Iraqis come to their own solutions.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

If we setup a Kurd-only nation we're going to upset Turkey something fierce. They have a large Kurd minority in the eastern portion of their country that have been clamoring and minorly rebelling for years. Setting up some sort of Kurdistan nation would just be throwing salt on an open wound for them. We'd lose Turkish support in pretty much all foreign affairs. It's best that we just stay out of it and let the Iraqis come to their own solutions.

From my understanding the Kurds are the largest ethnic population in the world without a home country. For that reason, I would think giving them a home country (northern Iraq) ought to deflate some of the separatist balloon in Turkey. If need be, I'd have some sort of UN resolution that on the one hand confers country status to what we'll call Kurdistan, but on the other hand explicity rejects ANY attempt to carve out or annex anything in Turkey to add to it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

From what I've read the Kurds and Turkey have a lot better relations now than they had had for many years. Turkey sees the Kurds as a buffer to the chaos beyond. The Kurds were even shipping oil through Turkey for sale (though Baghdad has tried to stymie that).