2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

collectively healthcare, education, compassionate treatment (slavery, child labor, civil rights), modern democracy (women's sufferage), etc. were faar more influenced by Christianity than any other influence.

That's an interesting point of view, considering that the Bible never openly advocates for any of those specific issues.

 

[Foxton]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

But the bible says I can own slaves...

That's just one of those bad things he don't like so it don't count.

Can't have anything negative in a wishy washy all purpose ultra generic feel good about yourself religion.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

But the bible says I can own slaves...

Many say a lot of about the bible and they'd be wrong. Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby set the record straight:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed"

No more complicated than that.

Didn't Rome and Greece have many (all?) of those concepts long before Christianity existed?

Not for the populous. Regardless, most of what they had introduced was back by the renaissance and serfdom still existed.

That's an interesting point of view, considering that the Bible never openly advocates for any of those specific issues.

An accurate point of view. Power corrupts absolutely...that was the situation before the bible was printed. After it got into the hands of society, it changed the morality the west. The first to call for the US to drop slavery were Quakers...and they remained the loudest voices for decades (all based on Jesus teaching). Many of the most ardent abolitionists...Christians. The National Child Labor Committee, an organization dedicated to the abolition of all child labor, was formed in 1904. By publishing information on the lives and working conditions of young workers, it helped to mobilize popular support for state-level child labor laws. The NCLC was created by a clergyman. Susan B Anthony driver behind women's suffrage, Quaker. Reverend Martin Luther King. Any idea why hospitals are named after saints?

Largest charities in the US (2012 per Forbes):
1. United Way - founded Christian
2. Salvation Army - Christian
4. Feeding American - originally St. Mary's food bank
5. Catholic Charities of America
6. Goodwill - started as a mission of ministry
7. Food for the poor - Christian
9. YMCA - Christian
10. World Vision - Christian
11. St. Judes Childrens Hospital

You get the idea...

 

[LynahFan]

Many say a lot of about the bible and they'd be wrong. Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby set the record straight:

So God the omnipotent, the omniscient, screwed up the original?

Christianity definitely helped popularize ideas like "love your neighbor" but it is innacurate to say that those ideas did not exist prior to and independent of Christianity. Read "A History of God" by Armstrong for a good review of the religious trends and currents that led to Christianity. Why do you suppose people mistook John the Baptist for the Messiah? LOTS of people were running around at the time claiming to be The One. Jesus didn't necessarily have better ideas, just a better PR department.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Many say a lot of about the bible and they'd be wrong. Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby set the record straight:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed"

No more complicated than that.
.

I'm sure that was a great relief to the millions of blacks held in bondage here in America for centuries.

You say many of the most ardent Abolitionists were Christian... What religion were most slaveholders and "state's rights" advocates? More atheists, I suppose....

 

[joecct]

One can have morals and a conscience without religion. In fact, many religious laws (such as the Ten Commandments) are just basic human decency wrapped up in a deified package.

But you can't display them in a public setting.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

So God the omnipotent, the omniscient, screwed up the original?

Not just the original, he also screwed up the reboot. Don't forget that the omniscient one started over again with a flood that killed everyone.

 

[unofan]

Many say a lot of about the bible and they'd be wrong. Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby set the record straight:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed"

No more complicated than that.



Not for the populous. Regardless, most of what they had introduced was back by the renaissance and serfdom still existed.



An accurate point of view. Power corrupts absolutely...that was the situation before the bible was printed. After it got into the hands of society, it changed the morality the west. The first to call for the US to drop slavery were Quakers...and they remained the loudest voices for decades (all based on Jesus teaching). Many of the most ardent abolitionists...Christians. The National Child Labor Committee, an organization dedicated to the abolition of all child labor, was formed in 1904. By publishing information on the lives and working conditions of young workers, it helped to mobilize popular support for state-level child labor laws. The NCLC was created by a clergyman. Susan B Anthony driver behind women's suffrage, Quaker. Reverend Martin Luther King. Any idea why hospitals are named after saints?

Largest charities in the US (2012 per Forbes):
1. United Way - founded Christian
2. Salvation Army - Christian
4. Feeding American - originally St. Mary's food bank
5. Catholic Charities of America
6. Goodwill - started as a mission of ministry
7. Food for the poor - Christian
9. YMCA - Christian
10. World Vision - Christian
11. St. Judes Childrens Hospital

You get the idea...

Do you get credit for everything in the US then? Cause no one is denying this country is 90% Christian, so inherently 90% of deeds will be done by Christians. That's both good and bad, btw. Christians were also the largest slave owners, the biggest racists (KKK), the most anti- science advocates, etc.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Meanwhile in Michigan you have to buy "Rape Insurance" to be able to have coverage for your abortion expense if you decide you don't want your rapists baby.

http://royaloak.patch.com/groups/po...iting-abortion-coverage-takes-effect_87242655

GO GOP GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

So God the omnipotent, the omniscient, screwed up the original?

Christianity definitely helped popularize ideas like "love your neighbor" but it is innacurate to say that those ideas did not exist prior to and independent of Christianity. Read "A History of God" by Armstrong for a good review of the religious trends and currents that led to Christianity. Why do you suppose people mistook John the Baptist for the Messiah? LOTS of people were running around at the time claiming to be The One. Jesus didn't necessarily have better ideas, just a better PR department.

If you're referring to the old testament...God didn't screw it up. Humans have always run the show on earth and wrote the bible (including the old testament). The old testament is somewhere between an introduction and analogies to deliver lessons. Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby could set the priorities.

Ideas like Jesus have always existed. But they didn't get any traction as societal norms until the bible was thoroughly distributed...and even then, it took a good century or two to permeate society. You may disagree with the value of Jesus' ideas...but the outcomes are well documented and as shown, cover every aspect of modern compassionate society.

Do you get credit for everything in the US then? Cause no one is denying this country is 90% Christian, so inherently 90% of deeds will be done by Christians. That's both good and bad, btw. Christians were also the largest slave owners, the biggest racists (KKK), the most anti- science advocates, etc.

Today's Christians go to church 3 times a year. They are 'Christian' because their family is 'Christian', their friends are 'Christian'. Christians that read the bible regularly or go help with the homeless probably make 25%? The Christians a hundred years ago I mentioned and their organizations were passionate...do a little research on this.

Sure there have been 'Christians' that have been the worst parts of society (people already mentioned Hitler). Again, not really Christians. And today, just like conservatives, liberals, blacks, whites...there are those that behave well and those that don't in any segment. Unfortunately whether Christians follow Jesus message is up to them. In the end, Jesus messages have won out in society...as practices like the KKK are in the dustbin of history IMO in large part of the undercurrent of centuries of Jesus messages' subtle influence.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Meanwhile in Michigan you have to buy "Rape Insurance" to be able to have coverage for your abortion expense if you decide you don't want your rapists baby.

http://royaloak.patch.com/groups/po...iting-abortion-coverage-takes-effect_87242655

GO GOP GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's disgusting. There should always be a rape/sexual assault consideration in laws like that.

 

[unofan]

If you're referring to the old testament...God didn't screw it up. Humans have always run the show on earth and wrote the bible (including the old testament). The old testament is somewhere between an introduction and analogies to deliver lessons. Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby could set the priorities.

Ideas like Jesus have always existed. But they didn't get any traction as societal norms until the bible was thoroughly distributed...and even then, it took a good century or two to permeate society. You may disagree with the value of Jesus' ideas...but the outcomes are well documented and as shown, cover every aspect of modern compassionate society.



Today's Christians go to church 3 times a year. They are 'Christian' because their family is 'Christian', their friends are 'Christian'. Christians that read the bible regularly or go help with the homeless probably make 25%? The Christians a hundred years ago I mentioned and their organizations were passionate...do a little research on this.

Sure there have been 'Christians' that have been the worst parts of society (people already mentioned Hitler). Again, not really Christians. And today, just like conservatives, liberals, blacks, whites...there are those that behave well and those that don't in any segment. Unfortunately whether Christians follow Jesus message is up to them. In the end, Jesus messages have won out in society...as practices like the KKK are in the dustbin of history IMO in large part of the undercurrent of centuries of Jesus messages' subtle influence.

You don't get to cherry pick the good from the bad and then use a "no true scotsman" fallacy to explain why you're ignoring the bad. Just because you might disagree with the practices of other Christians doesn't make then any less Christian. Frankly, the only characteristic that matters in that regard is whether the person believes Jesus was the son of God. If the answer is yes, they are Christian whether they go to church or not.

And frankly, people who go to church weekly still commit plenty of horrific sins. So don't pretend like they're any better than those of us who go only on the major holy days.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

It's true, he was not. In Hitler's long-term plans, once the Jews, the gypsies, and the gays were gone, Christians would've been next. His rule was established and maintained on the foundation of marginalizing and stamping out particular sects of society.

Regardless, attempting to lump all atheists in with the actions of Mao was a ridiculous broad stroke, and you know it.

I just threw Mao out there as an obvious example of an atheist who murdered people. I said nothing about all atheists, so please stop pushing something I didn't say.

Hitler did go after Christians, Dietrich Boenhoeffer being probably the most famous example. He had a sham church that he controlled and he crushed all those who would not submit to his sham church.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Regarding the Bible, it wasn't widely available until the printing press came along (and even then its availability was limited by folks who didn't want the common man to have access to it, etc.), which was long after it became very widespread.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I just threw Hitler out there as an obvious example of a Catholic who murdered people. I said nothing about all Catholics, so please stop pushing something I didn't say.

.

 

[LynahFan]

If you're referring to the old testament...God didn't screw it up. Humans have always run the show on earth and wrote the bible (including the old testament). The old testament is somewhere between an introduction and analogies to deliver lessons. Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby could set the priorities.

Ideas like Jesus have always existed. But they didn't get any traction as societal norms until the bible was thoroughly distributed...and even then, it took a good century or two to permeate society. You may disagree with the value of Jesus' ideas...but the outcomes are well documented and as shown, cover every aspect of modern compassionate society.

I actually agree very strongly with the value of Jesus's ideas - what better philosophy than "love your neighbor" could there be? My point is that this message was also being simultaneously espoused by other, non-Christian groups at the time of Jesus. Just as the study of biology provides a non-theistic explanation for the evolution of life, studying the history of philosophy and religion reveals that these ideas evolved naturally as well. It's largely an accident of history that the Roman emperors adopted Christianity - they very well might have gone with Betamax rather than VHS.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I just threw Hitler out there as an obvious example of a Catholic who murdered people. I said nothing about all Catholics, so please stop pushing something I didn't say.

Hitler was Catholic? Not only was that not what you said before, but, although his mother was Catholic, his Nazism was secular and he did what he could to undermine Christianity in Germany. To tie what he did as Fuhrer to anything remotely Catholic is to be oblivious to history.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Sure it does. Without religion we'd all be killing and raping each other, like all atheists do.

Mao and others agree with you.

I just threw Mao out there as an obvious example of an atheist who murdered people. I said nothing about all atheists, so please stop pushing something I didn't say.

Actually you did. But don't let facts get in the way.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Actually you did. But don't let facts get in the way.

That's just Bob being Bob.

Say something and then backtrack and/or deny and then play the persecuted card.


At least OP defends his ridiculous positions.

 

[burd]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Jesus was 1) last 2) well documented 3) God and thereby could set the priorities.

??