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2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

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Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

A more effective way to look at how guns have impacted murder and violent crime rates is to look at the various states that have changed sgnificantly within the past however many years, and then run regression analyses against them. Even better, because states like MN have had major changes in the conceal-carry laws, is to even look at a county-by-county basis. The reason for that is, like in MN, the change in the law was to make it a uniform process throughout the state where before it had been at the county sheriff's discretion and now it's not. County-based statistics will also help control for population density issues. You would also do well to even add in consdierations for changes in laws surrounding violent crimes, especially the punishment.

Simply put, you have certain states with loose gun control laws because they don't have much in the way of law enforcement agents, like Montana, where there's a county in the western half of the state bigger in size than many of the New England states, yet it only has a single sheriff and two deputies for all that land. Its gun policies are loose, but there's also not much in terms of people around to shoot at each other. Meanwhile, you have states like Illinois, where gun policy at the state level might not reflect what's happening in the urban areas like Chicago - which then has its own laws.

My senior thesis paper was on right-to-carry/concealed carry laws and their impact on murder rates. I learned at the end of my semester, after running numerous regression analyses, that murder rates were difficult to analyse at the state levels. I controlled for things like unemployment rates, labor force participation rates, population density, % change in GDP, and a slew of other factors, and even trying to control for ethnicity and race when the data would allow (figures obtained from the BLS). At the state level, for which I gathered all of my data, the only statistically significant impact on murder rates was the female labor force participation rates. This indicated that single-income families were on the rise, which led to worse or reduced parenting, which in turn led to higher crime rates. Beyond that - at the state level - all data was inconclusive. My data sets were from the years 1986 and 1996, the most recent data available at that time, and in between those years there were a number of states that changed their gun control laws; all data sets were taken from federal government resources.
I don't know. That sounds like a lot of work. I think it would be easier to just arbitrarily assign a grade to a state's gun policies, then see how that compares to the per capita murder rate to see if there is a correlation.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I appreciate St Clown's insight. For me, it comes down to something simple: cops on the street. If you have police on patrol, crime goes down. This was the genius of the COPS program enacted into law by Clinton. Get officers back to walking the beat and knowing the residents and people of the neighborhood, crack down on all forms of crime, and voila, the streets are safer.

As simple as this concept is, you'd be amazed how people on either side don't want to admit it. For conservatives, the idea is to have everybody armed and then pass laws like the death penalty for parking violations. For libs, its always the mythical power of citizens groups reaching out to the community, like that stops anybody from committing a crime. For libertarians, its Freakonomics nonsense, trying to chalk up the decline in crime to legalized abortion, never mentioning that in many states like NY or CA, abortion was legal years before Roe v Wade was handed down, hence NYC should have seen a decline in crime in the early 80's :eek:

Boston & New York did it right. No coincidence Bill Bratton ran both departments (and is back in NYC). Give law enforcement the resources and crack down on criminals.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Cloud, I understand the logic and applaud the effort. Time study is frequently the best methodology for such a study...but in this case, there's a good chance it's not and your results might have indicated no relationship but they might have indicated flaws in a time study approach. For example if you look at NYC, crime plummeted over two decades. What caused it? Nobody knows for sure...but hard cultural trends over time just occur. Likewise, the impact from looser laws don't just happen over night. The big issue I'm alluding to is that a gun culture probably takes decades to develop...and as a result, policy impacts wouldn't happen soon enough for such a study. Again, the results of the comparative methodology below doesn't have such issues and are very statistically significant.

I don't know. That sounds like a lot of work. I think it would be easier to just arbitrarily assign a grade to a state's gun policies, then see how that compares to the per capita murder rate to see if there is a correlation.

Look at the relationship in the data provided below and tell us where its wrong.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

It never ceases to amaze me how blind some people really are.

I tried to show you that anyone can take an opinion and find stats to back it up. At least in my crappy example, I used data (top ten firearm homicide states) compared to other data (top AA populated states) to form an erroneous assumption. What the report you are touting does is to compare data (top ten gun violence states) against an opinion (10 states with the weakest gun laws) to form an erroneous assumption. SJ covered it very well by saying:
I don't know. That sounds like a lot of work. I think it would be easier to just arbitrarily assign a grade to a state's gun policies, then see how that compares to the per capita murder rate to see if there is a correlation.
Your reply of:
Look at the relationship in the data provided below and tell us where its wrong.
shows you either unable to understand the whole point or are too blind to accept it. I'll bet on the later.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Just about spit coffee all over my screen when 5Mn asked to see data proving that an opinion is wrong. Warn me next time, k?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

The Republicans have won back the female vote that they lost in 2012.

“If the Democrats want to insult the women of America by making them believe that they are helpless without Uncle Sugar coming in and providing for them a prescription each month for birth control, because they cannot control their libido or their reproductive system without the help of the government, then so be it,” he continued. “Let us take that discussion all across America, because women are far more than the Democrats have played them to be.”

Read more: Huckabee: GOP Waging ‘War For Women’ | TIME.com http://swampland.time.com/2014/01/23/huckabee-gop-waging-war-for-women/#ixzz2rFwcsy5W

Game, Set, Match.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

It never ceases to amaze me how blind some people really are.

I tried to show you that anyone can take an opinion and find stats to back it up. At least in my crappy example, I used data (top ten firearm homicide states) compared to other data (top AA populated states) to form an erroneous assumption. What the report you are touting does is to compare data (top ten gun violence states) against an opinion (10 states with the weakest gun laws) to form an erroneous assumption. SJ covered it very well by saying:

Your reply of:

shows you either unable to understand the whole point or are too blind to accept it. I'll bet on the later.

OK...if I must. You showed 10 data points and claimed that one could make a racial relationship inference. That perspective breaks down immediately as soon as you look beyond your ten to the full 50 data points...to where there is no relationship whatsoever. The relationship between gun policy and gun violence doesn't weaken when you add data points...it strengthens as I showed. It continues to strengthen as you look to all 50 states.

There is absolutely a correlation or statistical relationship between gun policy and gun violence based on the data provided in the full and finite 50 states.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

OK...if I must. You showed 10 data points and claimed that one could make a racial relationship inference. That perspective breaks down immediately as soon as you look beyond your ten to the full 50 data points...to where there is no relationship whatsoever. The relationship between gun policy and gun violence doesn't weaken when you add data points...it strengthens as I showed. It continues to strengthen as you look to all 50 states.

There is absolutely a correlation or statistical relationship between gun policy and gun violence based on the data provided in the full and finite 50 states.
Wow! Do I feel foolish. I've been trying to figure out whether you were simply an ideologue or just plain clueless. It's clear to me now that you are both.
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Just about spit coffee all over my screen when 5Mn asked to see data proving that an opinion is wrong. Warn me next time, k?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

OK...if I must. You showed 10 data points and claimed that one could make a racial relationship inference. That perspective breaks down immediately as soon as you look beyond your ten to the full 50 data points...to where there is no relationship whatsoever. The relationship between gun policy and gun violence doesn't weaken when you add data points...it strengthens as I showed. It continues to strengthen as you look to all 50 states.

There is absolutely a correlation or statistical relationship between gun policy and gun violence based on the data provided in the full and finite 50 states.

If facts don't matter then why in the hell would any statistical analysis matter?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Just about spit coffee all over my screen when 5Mn asked to see data proving that an opinion is wrong. Warn me next time, k?

I thought you already did this a few posts ago? Are you saying you're spit coffee on your screen twice? :D

In other news: Christie gets some mail from the Feds...

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/01/chris-christie-campaign-subpoena-102522.html?hp=t2_3

You know, I have little interest in the Chris Christie takedown. While I readily admit he'd be the most formidable candidate against Hillary, I also firmly believe, long before Bridgegate, that he had little chance of securing the GOP nomination. Essentually he's this year's Jon Huntsman. Media loves him, pundits drop to their knees when he walks by, but way out of the mainstream base of the modern Republican party.

What I find funny is that its the right wing media fanning the flames on this.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

One of the things I find interesting is this. 5mn Major's linked study identifies the deadliest states, the 10 states with the "weakest" gun control laws, and the 10 states with the "strongest" gun control laws, and the 30 states somewhere in the middle.

As the study clearly notes, there is always a lot of interest in this data following mass shootings, interest to try to find a correlation. And as followers of this board know, 5mn Major is an active proponent of the Barney Fife rule of firearms -- one bullet issued per gun.

Yet look at this list of the 25 deadliest mass shootings in this country. http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/20-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-u-s-history-fast-facts/

They aren't occurring in the states with the "weakest" gun control laws. In fact, substantially more occurred in states with the "strongest" gun control laws, and of course the majority fell across the vast range of states somewhere between weak and strong gun control laws. Perhaps some laws were changed in response to these shootings, but you don't see the high frequency states necessarily at the top of the list of strongest gun control law states.

Who'da thunk
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

if gun control policy is the key to a safe state how does Maine get an F yet is one of the safer states? I'm sure its some kind of anomaly
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

if gun control policy is the key to a safe state how does Maine get an F yet is one of the safer states? I'm sure its some kind of anomaly

Because north of Cumberland County this is a rural state where people actually use rifles to go hunting wild animals, not hand guns and semi-automatics to hunt other people.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Pay very close attention to the TPP. It's about to go through while the public is "distracted" by celebrities.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Because north of Cumberland County this is a rural state where people actually use rifles to go hunting wild animals, not hand guns and semi-automatics to hunt other people.


Exactly. You want to kill somebody with a gun in Maine its a 4 hour drive avoiding moose at every turn until you even see another person, let alone have a reason to cap them. Same thing in North Dakota, where you can drive 12 hours without bumping into anybody.
 
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