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2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

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Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Let me point out the obvious: service in the armed forces of the United States is voluntary and can be dangerous, very dangerous. We make the training as realistic as possible, and we lose service members every year because of that realism. When deployed, we lose many service members in accidents. And, of course, we lose many due to hostile action by our enemies. The buried premise in all of these "was it worth it" arguments is that there is an objective standard by which that question can be answered. Folks who make that argument answer their own question in the negative. The most important decision any president makes is to put our forces in the field, exposing our warriors to danger. But that is the nature of military operations, some people will be hurt and killed. The only way to avoid that, of course, is stay home and give the bad guys of the world a pass.

We know that one undeniable consequence of the Vietnam War was to turn the Democrat party into the "Peace" party (by which they customarily mean opposition to military adventures engaged in by Republican but not Democrat presidents). The irony there is that it was two Democrat presidents (aided by overwhelming majorities in both houses of congress) who got us "waist deep in the big muddy" (to quote Pete Seeger). Years later, every member of the Democrat leadership in both houses of congress voted against the first Gulf War. As a consequence, Democrats took it in the shorts in the next election. Even the Speaker lost his seat in the House.

Customarily, some leading Democrats do support military intervention, then change their minds based primarily on political considerations (John Kerry Syndrome). This focusing on short term political gains is a prescription for making certain things go south after we leave. And it puts in jeopardy what our brave warriors have accomplished. Not to mention their lives.

The article of faith among Democrats is that "Bush lied and people died." Their sensitive personal lie detectors tell them that "being wrong" and "lying" are the same. Oddly, those same exquisitely tuned devices are unable to pick up on a lack of candor from a president who said (repeatedly) "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan, period." And a president, who, like Butterfly McQueen "don't know nothing 'bout no attack in Benghazi," (who subsequently made half a dozen references, in a cringing speech to the UN, to a video which he knew had nothing to do with the attack). Or, for that matter, claiming no knowledge of the IRS being used as a club against his opponents.

I yearn for a return to the notion that "politics stops at the water's edge." Les Aspin and Sam Nunn, both Democrats and chairmen of the military committees in congress, voted for the first Gulf War and made it possible for a few Democrats to go along. That's called leadership. I (and many conservatives) supported Clinton in Kosovo and Somalia. Some humanitarian interventions are entirely appropriate. The fact that we can't and won't intervene in every stink hole around the world certainly isn't a persuasive argument that we shouldn't ever intervene. Once a decision is taken to put forces in the field, my instinct is to support them and their efforts. While the wisdom of the decision can be debated, during the Vietnam War we saw that blind opposition can lead some of us to carry the flags of our enemies in protest marches and to collaborate with those enemies in their capital cities. Need I mention the party affiliation of these people?

I support Obama's program of using drones to clip AQ leaders (the more of those b*stards we kill, the better off the world will be). However, I think he's making a terrible mistake in Iraq. And has gotten himself into very deep water with has statements about not permitting Iran's nuclear program (we're the only ones who have the tools to take out those facilities should it come to that) and Syria's chemical weapons. These matters may work themselves out. I certainly hope so.
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Opie wrote:

"Years later, every member of the Democrat leadership in both houses of congress voted against the first Gulf War. As a consequence, Democrats took it in the shorts in the next election. Even the Speaker lost his seat in the House."

This is 100% false. The next elections after the Gulf War were in 1992, where the Dems did quite well. Next.

Look, give Opie credit for hanging in there until the last dog dies, but it just shows the depth of knuckledraggerism built into the mentality of the right. Iraq was, and is, a total disaster thanks to the inept management of the Bush Administration. In no way, shape, form, or function was watching a pathetic dictator getting hung worth 5,000 US lives or a trillion US Dollars based on doctored intelligence reports. Sadly for his ilk, the American people have long since rendered their verdict on Iraq in 2006, 2008 and 2012, with the last two GOP nominees getting crushed in the election despite bleating about how we should still be in Iraq. :rolleyes: Time to read 'em and weep over that war, conservatives.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Iraq was fundamentally a mistake because the nation has no interest in democracy and you trade one strongman for another. The current one isn't as bad as Hussein, but you also have the real possibility of the country imploding ala Syria. Bush fundamentally misread the whole Middle East. Nothing we can do will make Iraq or similar Middle Eastern nations anywhere near a peaceful democratic country. They have no history and seemingly little interest in such niceties when there's always a score to settle with the other clans, other brands of Islam, etc.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Iraq was fundamentally a mistake because the nation has no interest in democracy and you trade one strongman for another. The current one isn't as bad as Hussein, but you also have the real possibility of the country imploding ala Syria. Bush fundamentally misread the whole Middle East. Nothing we can do will make Iraq or similar Middle Eastern nations anywhere near a peaceful democratic country. They have no history and seemingly little interest in such niceties when there's always a score to settle with the other clans, other brands of Islam, etc.

Bob, I see you've been taking your Reasonable Pills again. Well done on this one.

You know, sometimes people you like make a bad call. Lets say there's an easy but overweight intern working at the WH. Not a good idea to bang her for example. That's not a problem for us Dems to admit.

Bush/Cheney/etc made a horrific call on Iraq. People can still like the guy but own up to that obvious fact. It astounds me even as a left wing hatchet man when righties can't even do that. I can maybe understand McCain's inability to let go of Iraq as he has that old Cold Warrior mentality, but when Mittens said the same thing last year I would have been headbutting the nearest concrete wall if I was one of his campaign advisors. Give up the ghost already on this one.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Bob, I see you've been taking your Reasonable Pills again. Well done on this one.

You know, sometimes people you like make a bad call. Lets say there's an easy but overweight intern working at the WH. Not a good idea to bang her for example. That's not a problem for us Dems to admit.

Bush/Cheney/etc made a horrific call on Iraq. People can still like the guy but own up to that obvious fact. It astounds me even as a left wing hatchet man when righties can't even do that. I can maybe understand McCain's inability to let go of Iraq as he has that old Cold Warrior mentality, but when Mittens said the same thing last year I would have been headbutting the nearest concrete wall if I was one of his campaign advisors. Give up the ghost already on this one.
Same thing I've said all along. McCain is wrong on lots of things. No surprise there.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Iraq was fundamentally a mistake because the nation has no interest in democracy and you trade one strongman for another. The current one isn't as bad as Hussein, but you also have the real possibility of the country imploding ala Syria. Bush fundamentally misread the whole Middle East. Nothing we can do will make Iraq or similar Middle Eastern nations anywhere near a peaceful democratic country. They have no history and seemingly little interest in such niceties when there's always a score to settle with the other clans, other brands of Islam, etc.

Bush bought into the neocon bs...Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. The problem is that W was given responsibility for our country. I was always adamantly against Iraq and remain so today. I am of the opinion that the small silver lining coming out the invasion was an extension of democracy. It will continue to be a rocky road but countries continue to inch towards putting power in the people's hands.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Bush bought into the neocon bs...Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. The problem is that W was given responsibility for our country. I was always adamantly against Iraq and remain so today. I am of the opinion that the small silver lining coming out the invasion was an extension of democracy. It will continue to be a rocky road but countries continue to inch towards putting power in the people's hands.
I don't think democracy is very highly valued in Iraq, other than if a given group can further their power via democracy. Kinda like the Muslim Brotherhood liked democracy in Egypt as it allowed them to come to power (at least for awhile). Democracy is only as good as the underlying institutions and populace want and allow it to be.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I agree, Bob. Iraq isn't really interested in a true Republic based Democracy. Iraq was like a black hole that the United States decided to throw their money into without any idea on return on investment.

Appears the return will be a total loss.l
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Opie wrote:

"Years later, every member of the Democrat leadership in both houses of congress voted against the first Gulf War. As a consequence, Democrats took it in the shorts in the next election. Even the Speaker lost his seat in the House."

This is 100% false. The next elections after the Gulf War were in 1992, where the Dems did quite well. Next.

Look, give Opie credit for hanging in there until the last dog dies, but it just shows the depth of knuckledraggerism built into the mentality of the right. Iraq was, and is, a total disaster thanks to the inept management of the Bush Administration. In no way, shape, form, or function was watching a pathetic dictator getting hung worth 5,000 US lives or a trillion US Dollars based on doctored intelligence reports. Sadly for his ilk, the American people have long since rendered their verdict on Iraq in 2006, 2008 and 2012, with the last two GOP nominees getting crushed in the election despite bleating about how we should still be in Iraq. :rolleyes: Time to read 'em and weep over that war, conservatives.

Tom Foley wasn't defeated? Another one of your "historical facts?"
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I agree, Bob. Iraq isn't really interested in a true Republic based Democracy. Iraq was like a black hole that the United States decided to throw their money into without any idea on return on investment.

Appears the return will be a total loss.l

I wonder where that pallet of $9,000,000,000 in cash wound up...
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Tom Foley wasn't defeated? Another one of your "historical facts?"

No, the next election was 1992. Tom Foley wasn't defeated in 1992.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I wonder where that pallet of $9,000,000,000 in cash wound up...


Small change. That's only, what, a little over three days worth of the growth in the national deficit. ;) :eek:
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Some interesting dot-connecting tying Bridge-gate to a nearby, ~$1 billion development:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/is-a-billion-dollar-development-project-at-the-heart-of-bridgegate

One of the comments speculates as to the traffic study being legitimate and the lane closures being an intentional gaming of the study with the intent of justifying permanent lane reduction.

I don't know if any of this has legs, but it certainly seems like much more plausible motivation than some kind of payback for refusal to give an endorsement.
 
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