2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I'm somewhat surprised, first it was Slate and this morning it was NPR singing Boehner's praises, claiming nobody else could walked that line of pretending to go to the wall for his party while hashing out a backroom deal that saved the country from disaster. It sounds like he's not only going to keep his crappy job, but come out way ahead in terms of wider respect and his legacy as speaker. They interviewed some congressmen from Tea Party to RINO who were all praising him up and down.

 

[Rover]

I'm somewhat surprised, first it was Slate and this morning it was NPR singing Boehner's praises, claiming nobody else could walked that line of pretending to go to the wall for his party while hashing out a backroom deal that saved the country from disaster. It sounds like he's not only going to keep his crappy job, but come out way ahead in terms of wider respect and his legacy as speaker. They interviewed some congressmen from Tea Party to RINO who were all praising him up and down.

Methinks The Boner's PR staff is far more effective than his legislative staff is. The guy's a laughingstock. Who would want "the Tea Party now embraces him" written about them?

 

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Methinks The Boner's PR staff is far more effective than his legislative staff is. The guy's a laughingstock. Who would want "the Tea Party now embraces him" written about them?

The opposing theory was that he is, indeed, a laughingstock but that trying to lead a united Republican legislative body is such a crappy, thankless job that everyone is happy to give him a pat on the head if he'll keep it so they don't have to do it.

 

[Rover]

The opposing theory was that he is, indeed, a laughingstock but that trying to lead a united Republican legislative body is such a crappy, thankless job that everyone is happy to give him a pat on the head if he'll keep it so they don't have to do it.

I'm going to be somewhat sympathetic to the man, up to a point. Boner is an old Reaganite country club Republican. Much like my school's recent retired hockey coach, he just has no idea how to relate to the people under him anymore. He's stuck between two worlds: the 1980's which he'd like to go back to (ala Romney, McCain, etc) and the 2010's where Teapartiers rule (Cruz, Paul). Some people who pre-date the Teabaggers are still as one with them, such as Paul Ryan and Steve King. Boner isn't, and when you watch somebody try to be something they're not, what you get is him as Speaker or Romney running for President. It just doesn't work.

Boner was probably convinced that Democrats would cave. Hell, I thought Democrats might cave and I was rooting for them. When they didn't it exposed how little power the man actually has, as he went back on every vow he'd made in the last several months. For the sake of his family, who can't like watching him get humiliated on a daily basis, he really needs to make this his last term in office. He's an old dinosaur amongst young dinosaurs.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Good commentary out of a pundit for once:

Charlie Cook: “Here’s a question for conservatives and Republicans: Going into the 2012 Election Day, or even in the last few days before Election Day, did you think Mitt Romney was going to win? A couple of months ago, did you think the strategy of threatening to shut down the government or prevent raising the debt ceiling, to force the outright repeal or defunding of Obamacare, would really work? Romney lost by 4,967,508 votes, 126 Electoral College votes, and 3.85 percentage points. That’s not very close. Obamacare isn’t going to be repealed this year, and it’s not going to be defunded. So the question is whether conservatives and Republicans should begin to worry if their instincts—specifically, their judgment on matters of politics and policy—are a bit off. Maybe “spectacularly wrong” would be more accurate. Does that worry anyone on the right or in the Republican Party? Are they concerned that continuing to follow such awful political instincts could lead to catastrophic consequences for their movement and their party?” Cook concludes: “It may be time for the GOP’s Non-delusional Caucus to stage an intervention. Otherwise the party may be headed for some voter-administered therapy.”


So I'd have to ask Fishy, Flaggy, Opie, big blue, etc. Did you ever consider that the problem is conservatism itself?

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I just love the respect that is shown in this thread. Name calling and cheap insults really go far to make political points and will obviously win people over to your side.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I just love the respect that is shown in this thread. Name calling and cheap insults really go far to make political points and will obviously win people over to your side.

A few years ago they were cleaner. The downfall started with a few posters and continued on down the line to incorporate most now. And it wasn't just posters from one side of the debates/discussions either.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

So I'd have to ask Fishy, Flaggy, Opie, big blue, etc. Did you ever consider that the problem is conservatism itself?

I don't believe that any serious people ever thought either of those things (Pres. Romney or defunding OCare) would really happen. It's like they're playing a giant game of pretending to govern while duping half the people without ever taking it seriously... it's hard to explain, but I don't think the actual politicians believe what they say out loud, most times. Obviously conservatism itself can't be the problem, we haven't had a conservative in office for a couple decades. Don't let the religious politicians or the banksters fool you - conservatism is NOT the idea that we can change things up to create a paradise for people "like me." Conservatism is actually the opposite of what the Republicans have been selling.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I just love the respect that is shown in this thread. Name calling and cheap insults really go far to make political points and will obviously win people over to your side.

A few years ago they were cleaner. The downfall started with a few posters and continued on down the line to incorporate most now. And it wasn't just posters from one side of the debates/discussions either.

And people wonder why political discourse in this country is at an all-time low. This is a college hockey message board, which implies that most of the posters have had some affiliation or other with higher education, or at least have an interest in it, and this is what we get?

As for Rover's question regarding conservatism, I think it's real interesting that we are coming up on the 50th anniversary of what I suspect most conservatives would consider to be the low point in their movement. Anyone who ever proclaims the death of either the conservative or progressive movement is doing so to provoke rather than predict. There will always be a progressive movement, and the counterbalancing conservative movement, because both play upon basic instincts most of us have.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Yes conservatives thought Romney was going to win. Excuses were made up and down (and cited on here and defended) about how the polls were skewed and how Romney had a shot. They completely duped themselves into believing...The amount of mea culpas from the right about how idiotic they acted was hilarious!

The best though was when Fox called the election for Obama and Karl Rove refused to believe it and went down to their "election results room" and argued with the people over calling the states they had called because he "talked to Republicans in Ohio" and said the numbers were shifting even though there was no way they could. The rest of the anchors argued with him but he just wouldnt let it go...

The modern version of the GOP is so insular that it has no idea what is really going on anymore. They assume anything that disagrees with their opinion or agenda is brought about by liberal bias and ignore it. (including unbiased statistics)

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Yes conservatives thought Romney was going to win. Excuses were made up and down (and cited on here and defended) about how the polls were skewed and how Romney had a shot. They completely duped themselves into believing...The amount of mea culpas from the right about how idiotic they acted was hilarious!

The best though was when Fox called the election for Obama and Karl Rove refused to believe it and went down to their "election results room" and argued with the people over calling the states they had called because he "talked to Republicans in Ohio" and said the numbers were shifting even though there was no way they could. The rest of the anchors argued with him but he just wouldnt let it go...

The modern version of the GOP is so insular that it has no idea what is really going on anymore. They assume anything that disagrees with their opinion or agenda is brought about by liberal bias and ignore it. (including unbiased statistics)

Karl is still waiting for Hamilton County...

 

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Yes conservatives thought Romney was going to win. ...

The modern version of the GOP is so insular that it has no idea what is really going on anymore. They assume anything that disagrees with their opinion or agenda is brought about by liberal bias and ignore it. (including unbiased statistics)

So it appears. I just never really believed it. Obviously Rove is one of the well-documented exceptions who ended up believing his own spin. I think most of them are only pretending to be complete idiots, to appeal to the base.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Newt believed it to, and admitted his mistake after the fact. (as did a few other big name R pundits who I am forgetting) I honestly believe that many inside the party chose to 1) completely ignore published polls because they had a liberal bias or 2) thought they could change the polls by constantly telling people they were skewed and wrong.

The GOP is starting to remind me of teenagers. They embrace being dumb (education is elitist) and seem to forget that in today's world everything is out there to see. Everyone has a videocamera and the internet always remembers. They dont even know what they are fighting for anymore they just know they dont want the Dems to win!

And before someone says it, yes the Dems are idiots too and have a million issues of their own but the crisis that is the GOP right now is only going to get worse. The Tea Party is going to be the death of true conservatism within the GOP.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

... The Tea Party is going to be the death of true conservatism within the GOP.

Are you trying to say that the current incarnation of the GOP without the Tea Party is true conservatism? Many call themselves conservatives who can no longer identify with the GOP due to the generally liberal positions the party has taken.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Conservatism is doomed because society keeps evolving, and at its core conservatism is the desire to go back to how things "used to be". 50 years ago conservatives were anti-big govt and against civil rights, amongst other things. That didn't turn out too well for them.

The problem righties/cons/Republicans/whatever have is that there is an internal movement that seeks to destroy any seemingly likeminded members who won't toe the line 100%. These insurgents are perfectly happen to have their party lose elections as opposed to nominating "RINO's" - a designation that apparently includes people like Dick Lugar and John McCain. I don't think politics has ever seen anything like this before. The leader of the party in the Senate should not under normal circumstances be fighting for his life in a primary. I'm not sure there's any precedent for that. Teabaggers are a completely new phenomenon in that way. It would be like if Little Ralphie Nader and his accolytes had taken over the Democratic party.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Newt believed it to, and admitted his mistake after the fact. (as did a few other big name R pundits who I am forgetting) I honestly believe that many inside the party chose to 1) completely ignore published polls because they had a liberal bias or 2) thought they could change the polls by constantly telling people they were skewed and wrong.

The GOP is starting to remind me of teenagers. They embrace being dumb (education is elitist) and seem to forget that in today's world everything is out there to see. Everyone has a videocamera and the internet always remembers. They dont even know what they are fighting for anymore they just know they dont want the Dems to win!

And before someone says it, yes the Dems are idiots too and have a million issues of their own but the crisis that is the GOP right now is only going to get worse. The Tea Party is going to be the death of true conservatism within the GOP.

GOP also reminds me of the Catholic Church...trying to cling to beliefs that are way behind where society has evolved to. Rather than try and adapt to the changing world, they cling to the past and think nearly all change is doom. However, the church at least appears to have a leader now who realizes this and is gently trying to bring the establishment into this century. Perhaps the GOP should listen to the pope and stop obsessing on social aspects so much.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Are you trying to say that the current incarnation of the GOP without the Tea Party is true conservatism? Many call themselves conservatives who can no longer identify with the GOP due to the generally liberal positions the party has taken.

I think there are some that are conservative. I think they are in the minority and for the most part are not heard from. The neo-cons are NOT conservative and the Tea Party is a whole new level of crazy...

There is nothing wrong with fiscal conservatism Rover, the problem is the social conservatives are the voice of the party.

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I think there are some that are conservative. I think they are in the minority and for the most part are not heard from. The neo-cons are NOT conservative and the Tea Party is a whole new level of crazy...

There is nothing wrong with fiscal conservatism Rover, the problem is the social conservatives are the voice of the party.

So if they are not conservative, what are they? I would call conservatism almost a philosophy so why would the Tea Party who take it one step further and refuse to give on smaller issues not be considered conservative? It seems to be that you are trying to paint conservatism with a very narrow scope that is somewhere near the middle where they will likely give up issues on some scale to the left. The latest budget bargain is a good example. What did the right get from it? Nothing except an assurance to follow the sequester which is already a law on the books. We will see the exact same scene go down in a few months when the deadline hits again and nothing new is accomplished. The only question is how much the right will fight next time.

And if there is nothing wrong with fiscal conservatism, why do we need to keep increasing the debt ceiling instead of cutting spending and getting everything in check? Wish more people saw it that way.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

GOP also reminds me of the Catholic Church...trying to cling to beliefs that are way behind where society has evolved to. Rather than try and adapt to the changing world, they cling to the past and think nearly all change is doom. However, the church at least appears to have a leader now who realizes this and is gently trying to bring the establishment into this century. Perhaps the GOP should listen to the pope and stop obsessing on social aspects so much.

What if the Catholic Church is right and society is wrong? Just because everyone is jumping off the cliff (so to speak) does not make it right. And Pope Francis has not changed one iota of Catholic doctrine, nor is there any indication that he will.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

What if the Catholic Church is right and society is wrong? Just because everyone is jumping off the cliff (so to speak) does not make it right. And Pope Francis has not changed one iota of Catholic doctrine, nor is there any indication that he will.

How can you say right or wrong? Like politics it's all your opinion. I compared church to GOP as I see similarities in their struggles of late and how both seem to be slipping in terms of identifying with as many people as they used to.
And I am aware Francis hasn't changed doctrine - but he's bringing the topics up which is light years apart from Benedict.