2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

Yes. I know that you won't agree with that, which I respect, but that's pretty much what I'm saying.



That's what two-party democracy is all about. It's why I wish we had a viable third party, even if they only garnered 20% of the vote.

Now we get into the uncomfortable areas. If the baby has a defect, should he/she be aborted? If the baby is the wrong sex, abort? If the answers are yes, are we practicing eugenics?

 

[ericredaxe]

Now we get into the uncomfortable areas. If the baby has a defect, should he/she be aborted? If the baby is the wrong sex, abort? If the answers are yes, are we practicing eugenics?

I don't think those are decisions for us to make for somebody else.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

I don't think those are decisions for us to make for somebody else.

Good point. Who speaks for the weak, the defective and the infirm?

We joke (some seriously) about "death panels" under PPACA. But are abortions death panels at the other end of the the life spectrum?

Should we be uncomfortable where we characterize over 1 million pregnancies are terminated each year as a "choice"?

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

That abortion is still legal at all....is it that hard to figure out?

The Texas Legislature wasn't going to change that. He makes it sound like this is a reasonable compromise that both sides don't like. That's hardly the case.

 

[pirate]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

Good point. Who speaks for the weak, the defective and the infirm?

We joke (some seriously) about "death panels" under PPACA. But are abortions death panels at the other end of the the life spectrum?

Should we be uncomfortable where we characterize over 1 million pregnancies are terminated each year as a "choice"?

No, because there are votes at stake.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

You didn't, I put the words in your mouth, for which I apologize, however:



This is the kind of talk favored by social conservatives when it comes to abortion, and most of them tend to have a "throw her to the wolves" attitude. I thought you were a libertarian? That's where I lean on the abortion issue - if it reduces poverty, welfare, sh*tty childhoods, and keeps a few criminals off the streets, then it's an evil I accept.

And where, in what you quoted, did I say anything about forcing other people into anything? Do I believe that people should make responsible decisions? Yes. But why should I be forcing them to do so? I believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Once human life hash been created, why would that particular human not have any more right to life than a human 80 years beyond birth? If it's because they're dependent upon another human, then perhaps we should destroy all humans that are dependent upon another. Those are my beliefs. I may disagree with people who think otherwise, but my beliefs are my own. You're so caught up in trying to destroy your perception of a libertarian character that you've forgotten one of the basic principles is a quote from Voltaire: “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

Good point. Who speaks for the weak, the defective and the infirm?

We joke (some seriously) about "death panels" under PPACA. But are abortions death panels at the other end of the the life spectrum?

Should we be uncomfortable where we characterize over 1 million pregnancies are terminated each year as a "choice"?

If a panel can consist of one person, then yes.

Also, there are times when things just go wrong during pregnancy, and the downside to abortion laws is that they can go after that under the guise that the mother did something to create the deficiency. One of my friends recently lost a child just a week or two before birth. Is she now going to be placed under the trials of abortion, similar to how manslaughter charges exist as a guise to murder? We should learn from these "protection laws", and how the zero tolerance policies associated with them cause more harm than good.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

The bottom line in all of this is that its not the right of total strangers to tell you how to make your decisions for you. Nobody has to like the fact that abortions happen. I also don't buy the Freakonomics argument. It would also be nice if people went the adoption route more. However, if you choose not to carry an unviable fetus (whatever that amount of time ends up being - generally through the 2nd trimester although I'm well aware of a few miracles out there) you don't need the approval of someone else who either doesn't understand or doesn't care about your situation. Call me a cynic, but I find it hard to believe that every anti-abortion activist only has the interests of the fetus in mind. I'm sure some do, but for others I have my doubts. Regardless, the person carrying the child gets to make the final decision up to a certain point (reasonable viability). Using the state to force women to have children against their will is Talibanesque.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

The bottom line in all of this is that its not the right of total strangers to tell you how to make your decisions for you. Nobody has to like the fact that abortions happen. I also don't buy the Freakonomics argument. It would also be nice if people went the adoption route more. However, if you choose not to carry an unviable fetus (whatever that amount of time ends up being - generally through the 2nd trimester although I'm well aware of a few miracles out there) you don't need the approval of someone else who either doesn't understand or doesn't care about your situation. Call me a cynic, but I find it hard to believe that every anti-abortion activist only has the interests of the fetus in mind. I'm sure some do, but for others I have my doubts. Regardless, the person carrying the child gets to make the final decision up to a certain point (reasonable viability). Using the state to force women to have children against their will is Talibanesque.

It makes me wonder if you're talking about traditional conception or droit du seigneur, the latter of which would most definitely be, as you put it, "Talibanesque". Personally, I believe that if you want to have the choice, you make the choice when you have unprotected sex. If you don't want to go through some medicinal form of protection, I'm sure there's some way to create some sort of female condom, similar to hygiene products available. Yes, I understand there are chances of those failing. Also, one other thing, and this is based upon the experiences of another one of my friends: She got pregnant, was planning on placing the child up for adoption, but about 7-8 months into the pregnancy became so attached to the child that she decided to keep her. They say they'll adopt, but then they end up not doing so.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

This new GOP that likes to close down business through government regulation is fascinating. I wonder what other busineeses they go after next.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

Personally, I believe that if you want to have the choice, you make the choice when you have unprotected sex. If you don't want to go through some medicinal form of protection, I'm sure there's some way to create some sort of female condom, similar to hygiene products available. Yes, I understand there are chances of those failing.

Are you saying you would support a woman's choice to end her pregnancy if, for example, the condom broke, but not if the sex was unprotected?

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

Man arrested outside Kerry household

Boston police arrested a man Sunday afternoon after he was spotted taking photos of Secretary of State John Kerry’s Beacon Hill home.

Police found a pellet gun in the man’s vehicle and arrested him for possession of an open alcohol container, said Kerry’s spokesman Glen Johnson.

Kerry was visiting his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, at Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital in Charlestown when State Department security officers saw the man taking pictures of the window in Kerry’s home, calling the Boston Police Department shortly after, Johnson said.

Kerry’s wife was flown to Massachusetts General Hospital from Nantucket in critical condition earlier this month after suffering a seizure. After her condition improved, she was moved to Spaulding to complete her recovery.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

This new GOP that likes to close down business through government regulation is fascinating. I wonder what other busineeses they go after next.

Now do you believe me when I say there's no difference between the two parties?

 

[Rover]

It makes me wonder if you're talking about traditional conception or droit du seigneur, the latter of which would most definitely be, as you put it, "Talibanesque". Personally, I believe that if you want to have the choice, you make the choice when you have unprotected sex. If you don't want to go through some medicinal form of protection, I'm sure there's some way to create some sort of female condom, similar to hygiene products available. Yes, I understand there are chances of those failing. Also, one other thing, and this is based upon the experiences of another one of my friends: She got pregnant, was planning on placing the child up for adoption, but about 7-8 months into the pregnancy became so attached to the child that she decided to keep her. They say they'll adopt, but then they end up not doing so.

Good for your friend, and I'm glad she had options. Its nice when people make that decision, but again its up to them and nobody else.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

Are you saying you would support a woman's choice to end her pregnancy if, for example, the condom broke, but not if the sex was unprotected?

Assuming the woman in question is not my wife or girlfriend (in which case, the creation of the child would almost certainly be half my doing), then I have no skin in the game, and so it is not up to me to answer the question. Personally, I don't believe in the extinguishing of life through a code 1-8-7, but as I said in post #286, that belief remains with me, and has no effect on a child I did not create. If a condom breaks, that's a risk that you take when you have sex. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you wish to take the action, you must be willing to accept the consequences of the reaction. The same is true with not taking action, which is, in effect, an action taken.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

Assuming the woman in question is not my wife or girlfriend (in which case, the creation of the child would almost certainly be half my doing), then I have no skin in the game, and so it is not up to me to answer the question. Personally, I don't believe in the extinguishing of life through a code 1-8-7, but as I said in post #286, that belief remains with me, and has no effect on a child I did not create. If a condom breaks, that's a risk that you take when you have sex. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you wish to take the action, you must be willing to accept the consequences of the reaction. The same is true with not taking action, which is, in effect, an action taken.

No disrespect, but this sounds an awful lot like pro-choice.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

No disrespect, but this sounds an awful lot like pro-choice.

So? I don't agree with abortion, but that's my beliefs. I can still vehemently disagree with the person who chooses abortion, possibly de-friend them if it happened to get that far (which, in a case where I had that option, I did not), but if it is not seen in the eyes of the law as murder, and it isn't my child, there's not much that I can do about it. Once again, it comes down to concepts vs. execution. I'm not even sure if the father has the ability to claim protection of his child from a mother wanting to abort the child. Then, of course, you'd have to account for cases of rape.

 

[pirate]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

So? I don't agree with abortion, but that's my beliefs. I can still vehemently disagree with the person who chooses abortion, possibly de-friend them if it happened to get that far (which, in a case where I had that option, I did not), but if it is not seen in the eyes of the law as murder, and it isn't my child, there's not much that I can do about it. Once again, it comes down to concepts vs. execution. I'm not even sure if the father has the ability to claim protection of his child from a mother wanting to abort the child. Then, of course, you'd have to account for cases of rape.

It gets complicated, which means middle ground, which the parties can't have. So, it is rampant abortions or clinic bombings, depending on who is describing the other side's stance. Those are your only two choices. And if you could develop an acceptable middle ground, one side will attach an add-on that either authorizes guns in schools or social security benefits starting at age 25.

What little humor there is in this issue is that people try to make it about something other than votes. Nobody is going back and telling their constituents they compromised on this 3rd rail issue. A true compromise would reduce the reasons for people to strongly align themselves with one party on this issue. Ain't got no time for that!

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

If you don't like abortions, don't get one.
If you don't like gay weddings, don't have one.

I don't plan to have either.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part 5: Big Brotha

As I said to maybe Shirtless Guy, if you feel really strongly pro-life, it is far more effective to volunteer at a crisis hotline or work with a ministry or adoption agency to reach out to these women in this situation than it is to support Rick Perry while he tries to burnish his credentials with the social conservative crowd with legislation that the courts will most likely block anyway. Sometimes politics aren't the best place to go if you want to have an actual impact.