"Worried" from the perspective of if I was a Dem operative managing a campaign in 2016. I could easily live with Jon Huntsman as a Presidential candidate at first glance as a voter although obviously a lot would depend on positions he took during the general election campaign. Mitt Romney was a far more moderate governor than candidate for example, so you never know.
USCHO Fan Forum
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.
2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
- Thread starter FlagDUDE08
- Start date
- Status
"Worried" from the perspective of if I was a Dem operative managing a campaign in 2016. I could easily live with Jon Huntsman as a Presidential candidate at first glance as a voter although obviously a lot would depend on positions he took during the general election campaign. Mitt Romney was a far more moderate governor than candidate for example, so you never know.
ericredaxe
Veteran
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
And therin lies the problem that I think the republican party has... lately, in order to win the Republican nominatinon, the candidates have to move signifigantly further to the right than most middle of the road voters can stomach.
And therin lies the problem that I think the republican party has... lately, in order to win the Republican nominatinon, the candidates have to move signifigantly further to the right than most middle of the road voters can stomach.
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
It's tough to get to the middle. But, as someone else asked somewhere else, why should the GOP do all the compromising?
Dems have the same problem. In order to win THEIR primaries, they have to move to the left.
It's tough to get to the middle. But, as someone else asked somewhere else, why should the GOP do all the compromising?
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
Please enlighten us to all the compromises. This should be good.
Please enlighten us to all the compromises. This should be good.
ericredaxe
Veteran
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
To an extent yes the Dem's do... but I don't think it is to the same degree.
To an extent yes the Dem's do... but I don't think it is to the same degree.
unofan
Well-known member
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
The TEA Party doesn't cause any issues with election so much as when the GOP establishment jumps on them in order to springboard their awful agenda, which is exactly what happened in 2010. The GOP would NEVER let a TEA party candidate run on his own platform; they would force their establishment agenda down the throat, which is why the GOP has difficulty winning: They're exactly the same as the whiners. The GOP won in 2002 and 2004 because we truly were at war and felt much more united as a country. Now that the corresponding missions have been accomplished (Hussein and Bin Laden ousted) and BOTH parties are carrying on the war perpetually in order to push their fascist agendas (remember, that's how Julius Caesar became dictator for life and crushed the republic: by creating a fake war as that was the Republic's way to create a dictatorship), there becomes a bigger divide and quarrel. Because the government bought up 3 billion rounds of ammo, you aren't going to see a physical revolution anytime soon. If anything, it would start on the tech front, such as intercepting the HF signal to the drones and send commands to turn on the operators. The government has already tested the waters by putting a suburb of Boston under effective martial law and temporarily seizing property; as clearly shown, the citizens gave in.
Moderate GOP agenda types will not win. Extreme TEA Party will.
The TEA Party doesn't cause any issues with election so much as when the GOP establishment jumps on them in order to springboard their awful agenda, which is exactly what happened in 2010. The GOP would NEVER let a TEA party candidate run on his own platform; they would force their establishment agenda down the throat, which is why the GOP has difficulty winning: They're exactly the same as the whiners. The GOP won in 2002 and 2004 because we truly were at war and felt much more united as a country. Now that the corresponding missions have been accomplished (Hussein and Bin Laden ousted) and BOTH parties are carrying on the war perpetually in order to push their fascist agendas (remember, that's how Julius Caesar became dictator for life and crushed the republic: by creating a fake war as that was the Republic's way to create a dictatorship), there becomes a bigger divide and quarrel. Because the government bought up 3 billion rounds of ammo, you aren't going to see a physical revolution anytime soon. If anything, it would start on the tech front, such as intercepting the HF signal to the drones and send commands to turn on the operators. The government has already tested the waters by putting a suburb of Boston under effective martial law and temporarily seizing property; as clearly shown, the citizens gave in.
Moderate GOP agenda types will not win. Extreme TEA Party will.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
PPACA, Fiscal Irresponsibility Act of 2009, Gun Ammunition Control Acts, Sotomayor, Kagan, Rangel...
PPACA, Fiscal Irresponsibility Act of 2009, Gun Ammunition Control Acts, Sotomayor, Kagan, Rangel...
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
lmao. not a single compromise in the bunch. None of those went through with pushes from either Bone Man or McConnell.
lmao. not a single compromise in the bunch. None of those went through with pushes from either Bone Man or McConnell.
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
Putting aside Flaggy's black helicopter schtick, I think a fair assessment right now is that the GOP is being driven further right than the Dems are being driven left. There's a reason for this and it has nothing to do with virtue. The Dems have already experienced what happens when a self centered huckster costs you a Presidential election (Little Ralphie Nader in 2000). The timeworn "there's not a dime's worth of difference between the two parties" coined by George Wallace I believe over 40 years ago was proven in harsh and no uncertain terms to be false as the years from 2001-2009 rolled on. Love him or hate him, but GWB's Presidency was much different than a potential Dem presidency would have been. Older liberals are naturally whiny. However, they'd been keeping the loony lefty demands to a minimum during Obama's tenure.
The problem for the right is that they haven't lost a winnable election due to an irrational nutball yet. Republicans had little chance of winning either the 2008 or 2012 elections with a different candidate than the ones they nominated. Therefore a price hasn't been paid yet for extremism (the Senate is another story, they really should have 4 more seats right now in MO, NV, DE, IN). Thinking back aways to 1984, nobody was going to win that election for the Democrats so there was no correction by the party from Mondale to Dukakis the next time around. Once the same result happened in a winnable election the party smartened up. I'm curious how this all plays out.
Putting aside Flaggy's black helicopter schtick, I think a fair assessment right now is that the GOP is being driven further right than the Dems are being driven left. There's a reason for this and it has nothing to do with virtue. The Dems have already experienced what happens when a self centered huckster costs you a Presidential election (Little Ralphie Nader in 2000). The timeworn "there's not a dime's worth of difference between the two parties" coined by George Wallace I believe over 40 years ago was proven in harsh and no uncertain terms to be false as the years from 2001-2009 rolled on. Love him or hate him, but GWB's Presidency was much different than a potential Dem presidency would have been. Older liberals are naturally whiny. However, they'd been keeping the loony lefty demands to a minimum during Obama's tenure.
The problem for the right is that they haven't lost a winnable election due to an irrational nutball yet. Republicans had little chance of winning either the 2008 or 2012 elections with a different candidate than the ones they nominated. Therefore a price hasn't been paid yet for extremism (the Senate is another story, they really should have 4 more seats right now in MO, NV, DE, IN). Thinking back aways to 1984, nobody was going to win that election for the Democrats so there was no correction by the party from Mondale to Dukakis the next time around. Once the same result happened in a winnable election the party smartened up. I'm curious how this all plays out.
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
Well, in 2006 Joe Lieberman lost the Dem primary in CT to some rich kid heir to JP Morgan's partner Lamont after which he won the general election as an independent quite comfortably. That's evidence that the general electorate wanted something quite different than the party faithful did.
Well, in 2006 Joe Lieberman lost the Dem primary in CT to some rich kid heir to JP Morgan's partner Lamont after which he won the general election as an independent quite comfortably. That's evidence that the general electorate wanted something quite different than the party faithful did.
cF[Authentic]
southpaw
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
So compromise now means to pass with no resistance?
So compromise now means to pass with no resistance?
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
You left out the part about how the Dem's are already pretty far to the left and so have less room remaining in which to be driven.
You left out the part about how the Dem's are already pretty far to the left and so have less room remaining in which to be driven.
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
It is a numbers game...the US voting population is moving to the left. As I said previously, it is my belief that this is more of a matter of practicality than philosophy. As the population earning less than $XX grows, and baby boomers depart, the votes will follow. Nothing about the level of educational performance in the US should make anybody think we're going to see an increase in the percentage of high income earners...the boat is listing to the left and will continue to do so. In the future, the "rich" cutoff won't be $250k of annual income. Why would the 99% want to sock it to the 1% when the 70% could sock it to the the 30% and get more bang for the buck? Why would they stop at 70%?
So, no politician is convincing low income people to join the blue party, the blue party will continue to pursue the growing volume of voters who want what they are selling. If indeed the reds are literally dying off then the 51% mark moves to the left every year even if new voters weren't trending left as well. It has less to do with the policies of the party...if the reds decided they wanted to grow their party, they'd move to the left of the blues, promise more taxes for the top 30%, more benefits for the bottom 50% and win the next 2-3 elections. The blues could outflank them on the left, but not the right.
The middle party will never materialize, the existing two parties won't allow it. If there ever is a third party it would be the 'more blue party'.
It is a numbers game...the US voting population is moving to the left. As I said previously, it is my belief that this is more of a matter of practicality than philosophy. As the population earning less than $XX grows, and baby boomers depart, the votes will follow. Nothing about the level of educational performance in the US should make anybody think we're going to see an increase in the percentage of high income earners...the boat is listing to the left and will continue to do so. In the future, the "rich" cutoff won't be $250k of annual income. Why would the 99% want to sock it to the 1% when the 70% could sock it to the the 30% and get more bang for the buck? Why would they stop at 70%?
So, no politician is convincing low income people to join the blue party, the blue party will continue to pursue the growing volume of voters who want what they are selling. If indeed the reds are literally dying off then the 51% mark moves to the left every year even if new voters weren't trending left as well. It has less to do with the policies of the party...if the reds decided they wanted to grow their party, they'd move to the left of the blues, promise more taxes for the top 30%, more benefits for the bottom 50% and win the next 2-3 elections. The blues could outflank them on the left, but not the right.
The middle party will never materialize, the existing two parties won't allow it. If there ever is a third party it would be the 'more blue party'.
The huge problem with this analysis is that the wealthy states vote Dem and the poor ones vote GOP. Kentucky, West Virginia, Alabama, etc are all voting for righties, while the donor states of Mass, NY, CA, etc are voting left.
What this speaks to is a mindset that the right wing has adopted that only appeals to older voters. Everything fits into three categories. 1) You're losing your freedoms. 2) The country is changing for the worse and will cease to exist in a few years, and 3) You're the only one working for a living while everyone else is collecting a handout.
Why this appeals to older voters is because society HAS changed since they were younger just like it has for every generation since the country was founded. Tell a 30 year old that society is changing and they'll say "Great!". Tell that to a 60 year old and you'll get a far different reaction. Why it appeals even more so to the Baby Boomer generation is that they're extraordinarily self centered and entitled. The WWII generation wasn't nearly this bad at a similar age most likely because of the shared sacrifice of that struggle.
So, for those born after the late 50's, we just don't have that fear of those "other people" getting ahead so we have to stick it to them. That really is a hot button for IMHO those aged in their late 50's to their early 70's. Politically it worked well for awhile, but now its a loser (Paul Ryan's everybody under 55 pays while everybody over 55 doesn't budget comes to mind).
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
Evidently you're suffering from the same virus as Priceless: your bad acts or shortcomings are justified by someone else's. What's really sad is that in addition to being the best both of you have, it's also apparently all you have. Tell us again why Mark Foley is a bad guy, but Gerry Studds was a victim of his gonads who lost "legislative effectiveness" as a result.
Evidently you're suffering from the same virus as Priceless: your bad acts or shortcomings are justified by someone else's. What's really sad is that in addition to being the best both of you have, it's also apparently all you have. Tell us again why Mark Foley is a bad guy, but Gerry Studds was a victim of his gonads who lost "legislative effectiveness" as a result.
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
NYS (NYC??) has a lot of rich people, but they have a lot of folks who depend on government services. So, is it the entitlement generation that is moving the votes left? 20 years ago I saw the start of it with the "every kid gets a trophy" crowd. You just finished 0-15 and you get a trophy??? As the coach you talk about accomplishments - like the girl who threw like a girl at the start of the season, but by the end could gun it across the infield. Now, everybody does well, nobody fails. For this 57 year old fuddy duddy I find that a disappointment.
Is it wealthy or those that depend more on the government than those who don't??
NYS (NYC??) has a lot of rich people, but they have a lot of folks who depend on government services. So, is it the entitlement generation that is moving the votes left? 20 years ago I saw the start of it with the "every kid gets a trophy" crowd. You just finished 0-15 and you get a trophy??? As the coach you talk about accomplishments - like the girl who threw like a girl at the start of the season, but by the end could gun it across the infield. Now, everybody does well, nobody fails. For this 57 year old fuddy duddy I find that a disappointment.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
We're afraid to call losers what they are - losers.
"You get a trophy...and you get a trophy...and YOU get a trophy...You All. Get. Trophies!1!!1!"
We're afraid to call losers what they are - losers.
"You get a trophy...and you get a trophy...and YOU get a trophy...You All. Get. Trophies!1!!1!"
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
Gotta give trophies to everybody if you're not keeping score. I much prefer the response of the Bears when they got their cheesy little 2nd place trophy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1-zBIIvl5g
Gotta give trophies to everybody if you're not keeping score. I much prefer the response of the Bears when they got their cheesy little 2nd place trophy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1-zBIIvl5g
Last edited:
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines
Joecct,
Don't you think that every generation thinks the one after them are all candy @ sses? As someone who I think contributed to the next generation that's a he ll of an attitude to take. You've gotta trust that the people who come after you care as much about the country as you do but can learn from your generation's mistakes.
The crux of right wing media is that you and the people you know are working hard, but its all the people you don't know that are grifting. Statistically that's d@mn near impossible. You're a good guy being enraged by hucksters who want you to keep listening. Recognize the scam and you'll feel a lot better about things.
Joecct,
Don't you think that every generation thinks the one after them are all candy @ sses? As someone who I think contributed to the next generation that's a he ll of an attitude to take. You've gotta trust that the people who come after you care as much about the country as you do but can learn from your generation's mistakes.
The crux of right wing media is that you and the people you know are working hard, but its all the people you don't know that are grifting. Statistically that's d@mn near impossible. You're a good guy being enraged by hucksters who want you to keep listening. Recognize the scam and you'll feel a lot better about things.
- Status