2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

[unofan]

So people in poverty don't have drivers licenses, social security numbers, etc.? Most people, even in lower income stratas, need to have forms of ID at times. But, nice try.

Contrary to popular belief among those of us with cars, not everyone has a driver's license or a passport. All voter id laws of which I am aware require a gov't issued photo id, which precludes social security cards (no photo) and credit cards and student ids (not govt issued)

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Contrary to popular belief among those of us with cars, not everyone has a driver's license or a passport. All voter id laws of which I am aware require a gov't issued photo id, which precludes social security cards (no photo) and credit cards and student ids (not govt issued)

One thing to note, though: In order to get a government issued ID (at least this is the case in NYS), you must either provide a certain number of identifications based upon a point system (including non-photo, such as social security cards, birth certificates, I think gas bills are on the list, although quite low) or sign a sworn affidavit. I believe the discussions about voter identification includes the issuing of photo voter ID cards, with the government footing the bill for processing and any document lookups.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Not to mention, if you like hockey, that means you're automatically a cake eater.

That only applies to eastern hockey fans!

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

So I have been wondering what the difference is between trying to regulate voting with bills like the "voter ID" bill, and regulate the right to bear arms with "more comprehensive background checks"?

So, I assume since no one is arguing the point, everyone agrees that comprehensive background checks before you buy a gun (even at gun shows) is a good idea.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

So, I assume since no one is arguing the point, everyone agrees that comprehensive background checks before you buy a gun (even at gun shows) is a good idea.

It's not a good idea, and I've already said why. There's no need for me to repeat myself.

 

[trucker]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

So people in poverty don't have drivers licenses, social security numbers, etc.? Most people, even in lower income stratas, need to have forms of ID at times. But, nice try.

Many of the poor in inner cities do not have a driver's license and use mass transit to get back and forth. For most people the driver's license is the primary source for a photo id and not having that can create a real problem trying to comply with the restrictive new Voter ID laws.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Many of the poor in inner cities do not have a driver's license and use mass transit to get back and forth. For most people the driver's license is the primary source for a photo id and not having that can create a real problem trying to comply with the restrictive new Voter ID laws.

Most non-drivers I know in NYS have a non-driver State ID card.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Many of the poor in inner cities do not have a driver's license and use mass transit to get back and forth. For most people the driver's license is the primary source for a photo id and not having that can create a real problem trying to comply with the restrictive new Voter ID laws.

That's why I support a reasonable, rather than restrictive, voter ID law, giving people plenty of time prior to elections to get an ID if they don't have one. Our society requires IDs to do all sorts of other things. For people to contend that it's some sort of major burden to have an ID to vote is simply partisan sniping, nothing more.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

It's not a good idea, and I've already said why. There's no need for me to repeat myself.

But you can answer the follow up question. Also, a 'slippery slope' really isn't that compelling an argument.

It's called an opportunity for the second amendment to be violated. If you put background checks into place, the firearm can be denied for any reason. And then the courts, which with the exception of John Roberts have proven that they legislate from the bench based upon political leanings, will come up with some cockamamie justification for the denial. Let's not give them that opportunity.

So, there is no chance for people's right to vote to be violated?

 

[trucker]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

That's why I support a reasonable, rather than restrictive, voter ID law, giving people plenty of time prior to elections to get an ID if they don't have one. Our society requires IDs to do all sorts of other things. For people to contend that it's some sort of major burden to have an ID to vote is simply partisan sniping, nothing more.

As I said earlier, this is a solution looking for a problem. Where is all of this voter fraud? Most people will not risk going to jail to vote twice for their candidate. And if you disenfranchise 10,000 legitimate voters to catch 50 instances of voter fraud is this a good trade off? The voter id laws are partisan since their main objective is to supress the vote on the left. There is no real problem of voter fraud.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

As I said earlier, this is a solution looking for a problem. Where is all of this voter fraud? Most people will not risk going to jail to vote twice for their candidate. And if you disenfranchise 10,000 legitimate voters to catch 50 instances of voter fraud is this a good trade off? The voter id laws are partisan since their main objective is to supress the vote on the left. There is no real problem of voter fraud.

So you conceed that we require IDs for all sorts of other things in our society, but voting isn't an important enough civic function to make sure people vote legally. Ok. Got it. I guess the integrity of the voting process is more important to some of us than to others. I don't buy that many people will be disenfranchised if you give them a reasonable opportunity to get an ID of some sort for the relatively small number of people who otherwise make it through life with no way of identifying themselves. Really, if a person can't make that very limited effort, can they really complain that they've been disenfranchised? They would mainly be disenfranchising themselves, rather than blaming others.

 

[trucker]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

So you conceed that we require IDs for all sorts of other things in our society, but voting isn't an important enough civic function to make sure people vote legally. Ok. Got it. I guess the integrity of the voting process is more important to some of us than to others. I don't buy that many people will be disenfranchised if you give them a reasonable opportunity to get an ID of some sort for the relatively small number of people who otherwise make it through life with no way of identifying themselves. Really, if a person can't make that very limited effort, can they really complain that they've been disenfranchised? They would mainly be disenfranchising themselves, rather than blaming others.

Where is this big problem of voter fraud? Or have those on the right been making it up? Voting is too important to disenfranchise people for a made up problem.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

So you conceed that we require IDs for all sorts of other things in our society, but voting isn't an important enough civic function to make sure people vote legally. Ok. Got it. I guess the integrity of the voting process is more important to some of us than to others. I don't buy that many people will be disenfranchised if you give them a reasonable opportunity to get an ID of some sort for the relatively small number of people who otherwise make it through life with no way of identifying themselves. Really, if a person can't make that very limited effort, can they really complain that they've been disenfranchised? They would mainly be disenfranchising themselves, rather than blaming others.

Why do you continue to evade the the assertion that this is a solution in search of a problem? Where is this voter fraud that's such a scourge? Can you show us elections that have turned on fraud?

Convince us that this is a problem worth tackling.

And OP, before you bring up Chicago in the 60's, how about something in the past 20 years?


I don't buy for a second that lots of people are spending the day going from polling place to polling place to vote one time and then travel to the next. It would take numbers of these people that just aren't possible for it to even make a dent in any major election.

In addition, it would be a terribly boring way to spend a day being that drop in the ocean. Think about this stuff logically and then get back to us.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

But you can answer the follow up question. Also, a 'slippery slope' really isn't that compelling an argument.

I'd like for you to give some violation examples before I can give you a good answer.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Where is this big problem of voter fraud? Or have those on the right been making it up? Voting is too important to disenfranchise people for a made up problem.

I gave a clear example. Or are you one of those ear-pluggers who immediately disregards what someone writes based upon source?

And if that isn't good enough for you, how about ACORN?

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

I'd like for you to give some violation examples before I can give you a good answer.

How is it that a gun sale would/could be denied "for any reason?" By whom? The dealer? He wants to make a sale.

The background check would reveal someone who can't legally buy a gun. Where's the problem with that?

Oh wait, Dems want it, so I must oppose it.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

How is it that a gun sale would/could be denied "for any reason?" By whom? The dealer? He wants to make a sale.

The background check would reveal someone who can't legally buy a gun. Where's the problem with that?

Oh wait, Dems want it, so I must oppose it.

Who is performing the background check? What is the criteria for the background check? What process is used to change the criteria?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

How is it that a gun sale would/could be denied "for any reason?" By whom? The dealer? He wants to make a sale.

The background check would reveal someone who can't legally buy a gun. Where's the problem with that?

Oh wait, Dems want it, so I must oppose it.

I think we have a huge problem. Why is it that I can buy a gun online or at a gun show without a check and I can't go to Gander Mountain and the do the same thing? Since we voted down universal checks I think the next logical step is to abolish the practice altogether.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Where is this big problem of voter fraud? Or have those on the right been making it up? Voting is too important to disenfranchise people for a made up problem.

And I again return the question to you. Why do you desire a voting process with less integrity and more opportunity for manipulation when there is a reasonable way to avoid the possibility of that happening? See, I can keep asking the same question also.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

I gave a clear example. Or are you one of those ear-pluggers who immediately disregards what someone writes based upon source?

And if that isn't good enough for you, how about ACORN?

It's only cheating if one's opponents do it.