2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Are you in your bunker?


Awesome.

Faux "News"

You asked for something, you got it. If you want to prove it false because of the source, then look for key information (the name is a good start) in other sources. This is what actual debaters do. They don't just cover their ears and shout "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA" when someone actually refutes their attack. By saying that you are going believe a source at a rate of either 0% or 100%, you've shown that you don't actually care about the topic.

 

[JF_Gophers]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

The solution seems clear to me. Pass both Voter ID and further background checks. It will be an even trade of perceived rights infringement by the parties.

 

[goldy_331]

Are you in your bunker?


Awesome.

Faux "News"

She was indicted. It's public record. What t f does the reporting agency have to do with anything?

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

You asked for something, you got it. If you want to prove it false because of the source, then look for key information (the name is a good start) in other sources. This is what actual debaters do. They don't just cover their ears and shout "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA" when someone actually refutes their attack. By saying that you are going believe a source at a rate of either 0% or 100%, you've shown that you don't actually care about the topic.

The charges are that she voted for family members who did not vote, presumably because she had already 'voted for them'. Seems pretty lazy to me and I have no problem with throwing the book at her.

No one has said who the other two people who were indicted voted for, but I know Obama had a huge turnout among Catholic nuns and old white guys.

Textbook Obama supporter there.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

She was indicted. It's public record. What t f does the reporting agency have to do with anything?

Yeah, I read it and she deserves any legal measures that are taken against her.

This hardly seems like justification for a national movement by the GOP to protect us all. Again, the response is far outweighing the incidence of fraud that we are seeing - at least that can be proven.


My snort at Faux is that they have a well-documented history of taking miniscule incidents and using them to justify GOP agenda. Remember the one menacing black dude in Philadelphia? This one case that Tin-Flag cited is pretty far from a smoking gun when it comes to the scourge of voter fraud.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

You asked for something, you got it.

In the post that I responded to, you said...

"those that voted six times for Obama in 2012"


Last time I checked, "those" would seem to imply that there were many, not one lady. Do you have a link that supports what you said? That's what I was asking for.

Looks like you're the one who could use some help in debate skills.


PS: The nun and the old dude each voted (allegedly) for one other person. Not "6 times for Obama."

 

[trucker]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

The Voter ID push is clearly an effort from the right to limit the vote from the poor, elderly and minorities. Guess how this subset usually votes? The link below shows the real cost for people to get a photo ID that do not have a driver's license and 10% of eligible voters do not have the proper identification.

http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/policy-brief-voter-identification

This is a solution looking for a problem. There are very few cases of documented voter fraud because most people will not risk going to jail if caught voting more than once for their candidate. And if these laws stop stop 50 people from voter fraud but disenfranchise 10,000 from voting, is it a good law? Does it promote democracy? Or is it just another ploy for the right to try to hold onto their dwindling power base?

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

The people who are against free voter IDs (and that's the way you have to do it because of the 24th) are claiming that the opportunity cost from waiting in line for the ID is a poll tax.

The opportunity cost being time not spent getting drunk on the Mickey's they spent their welfare checks on?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

The Voter ID push is clearly an effort from the right to limit the vote from the poor, elderly and minorities. Guess how this subset usually votes? The link below shows the real cost for people to get a photo ID that do not have a driver's license and 10% of eligible voters do not have the proper identification.

http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/policy-brief-voter-identification

This is a solution looking for a problem. There are very few cases of documented voter fraud because most people will not risk going to jail if caught voting more than once for their candidate. And if these laws stop stop 50 people from voter fraud but disenfranchise 10,000 from voting, is it a good law? Does it promote democracy? Or is it just another ploy for the right to try to hold onto their dwindling power base?

Your site does not talk about how much it costs to get a voter photo ID. It only talks about driver's licenses and passports, as well as birth certificates or naturalization papers. If you're going to require those, obviously a subsidy would need to be put into place (yet ANOTHER government expenditure ). And yet, doesn't everyone who is a citizen have or is supposed to have a social security card? Or is that not an OK way to be identified? I'm waiting for some people to talk about fake SS#s too... I'm waiting for the Demolition Man suggestion to have bio-chips sewn into a person...

 

[JF_Gophers]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

I honestly don't care that much if voter ID is ever implemented or not. It's not a fight i'm all that passionate about and it won't effect me, as I am fine with having ID. But I do like discussing it's implications.

I doubt our country will ever vote in large numbers unless the politicians change for the better. They are all self serving instead of people serving. Its no wonder people are indifferent about it. Someone would argue, "that's why you should vote!" The response would be, "vote for who exactly?"

I read the brennan center report. But it brings up a lot more questions for me than it answers. It also sounds like from reading about them that they were predisposed to oppose the law and that's why they wanted to do their study. It didn't seem to be unbiased in any way.

It didn't address why all of these people don't have some form of ID to start with. How are people over the age of 15 going through life without an ID of any kind? Do they just never leave their home?

It says as much as 10% of eligible voters could be affected. Not 10% of voters who actually vote (which is around 60%). Just 10% of the total voter population. So in truth it may affect almost no one negatively.

It didn't address how Voter ID would be proposed to work (i.e. a free identification). It only talked about ID's that have large costs attached to them. Also, why would someone have to take time off from work to get ID? Those places are open 6 days a week. You really don't ever have any time off? Since when do birth certificates cost $45? It costs $10. State ID's are about $18. If you were naturalized, why wouldn't you have some paper work related to that already?

It says there is not a widespread problem with voter fraud, so there is no issue. I doubt they would so easily discount measures to keep people from dying in hospitals or to keep people safe from being the victim of a crime, or whatever else you can think of, even if the percentage of incidents vs the total population involved was equally as low.

I don't disagree that the GOP thinks this will help them win elections. I think they are sadly mistaken, like they are with a lot of their policies and ideals lately.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

I honestly don't care that much if voter ID is ever implemented or not. It's not a fight i'm all that passionate about and it won't effect me, as I am fine with having ID. But I do like discussing it's implications.

I doubt our country will ever vote in large numbers unless the politicians change for the better. They are all self serving instead of people serving. Its no wonder people are indifferent about it. Someone would argue, "that's why you should vote!" The response would be, "vote for who exactly?"

I read the brennan center report. But it brings up a lot more questions for me than it answers. It also sounds like from reading about them that they were predisposed to oppose the law and that's why they wanted to do their study. It didn't seem to be unbiased in any way.

It didn't address why all of these people don't have some form of ID to start with. How are people over the age of 15 going through life without an ID of any kind? Do they just never leave their home?

It says as much as 10% of eligible voters could be affected. Not 10% of voters who actually vote (which is around 60%). Just 10% of the total voter population. So in truth it may affect almost no one negatively.

It didn't address how Voter ID would be proposed to work (i.e. a free identification). It only talked about ID's that have large costs attached to them. Also, why would someone have to take time off from work to get ID? Those places are open 6 days a week. You really don't ever have any time off? Since when do birth certificates cost $45? It costs $10. State ID's are about $18. If you were naturalized, why wouldn't you have some paper work related to that already?

It says there is not a widespread problem with voter fraud, so there is no issue. I doubt they would so easily discount measures to keep people from dying in hospitals or to keep people safe from being the victim of a crime, or whatever else you can think of, even if the percentage of incidents vs the total population involved was equally as low.

I don't disagree that the GOP thinks this will help them win elections. I think they are sadly mistaken, like they are with a lot of their policies and ideals lately.

For the cost of the documentation, I think it's based upon the location. In NYS, it's about $50 for a driver's license that lasts about 8 years. It could be higher in NYC or NJ.

 

[trucker]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

I honestly don't care that much if voter ID is ever implemented or not. It's not a fight i'm all that passionate about and it won't effect me, as I am fine with having ID. But I do like discussing it's implications.

I doubt our country will ever vote in large numbers unless the politicians change for the better. They are all self serving instead of people serving. Its no wonder people are indifferent about it. Someone would argue, "that's why you should vote!" The response would be, "vote for who exactly?"

I read the brennan center report. But it brings up a lot more questions for me than it answers. It also sounds like from reading about them that they were predisposed to oppose the law and that's why they wanted to do their study. It didn't seem to be unbiased in any way.

It didn't address why all of these people don't have some form of ID to start with. How are people over the age of 15 going through life without an ID of any kind? Do they just never leave their home?

It says as much as 10% of eligible voters could be affected. Not 10% of voters who actually vote (which is around 60%). Just 10% of the total voter population. So in truth it may affect almost no one negatively.

It didn't address how Voter ID would be proposed to work (i.e. a free identification). It only talked about ID's that have large costs attached to them. Also, why would someone have to take time off from work to get ID? Those places are open 6 days a week. You really don't ever have any time off? Since when do birth certificates cost $45? It costs $10. State ID's are about $18. If you were naturalized, why wouldn't you have some paper work related to that already?

It says there is not a widespread problem with voter fraud, so there is no issue. I doubt they would so easily discount measures to keep people from dying in hospitals or to keep people safe from being the victim of a crime, or whatever else you can think of, even if the percentage of incidents vs the total population involved was equally as low.

I don't disagree that the GOP thinks this will help them win elections. I think they are sadly mistaken, like they are with a lot of their policies and ideals lately.

You make some valid points and I agree with most of what you say. The Brennan Center does not believe in Voter ID laws and they make an argument why they are not needed so yes they are only giving one side of the story. However, the report shows that there are millions of people without the required ID and for many of them it would be a financial burden to get it. This sounds incredible to those who are comfortable in life but it is a reality for many who live in poverty.

As to your disagreement with the Brennan stance that since the problem of voter fraud is so small it does not need to be addressed I go back to what I said in my original post. Does a law requiring voter ID make sense if it stops 50 cases of voter fraud but disenfranchises 10,000 legitimate voters?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Here's the question I have:

If getting a free voter ID is a financial hardship, wouldn't getting to the polling place itself be considered a hardship?

 

[trucker]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

There are a lot more local precincts on election day and most people can get to them. It is much easier than going to a government office and paying for a photo ID. And it is just another barrier to make voting more difficult for the poor, along with the long lines at voting booths in Ohio and Florida.

 

[unofan]

I had a discussion with a relative about Voter ID recently and that is what got me thinking about it.

Their position was, especially in the case of minorities it was another way for republicans to intimidate them and keep them from voting in elections. Also, that the elections were not in general being defrauded by the people, so there was really no need for a further regulation.

My position was, if the ID is free to get and easily attainable to all people, it seems like a pretty low bar to cross in order to vote. Especially if it is simply ensuring age and citizenship. If having an ID is intimidating minorities, it is because of all the things that have happened to them before this, not because of the ID itself.

Easily obtainable is the usual stumbling block. Any state with common sense knows there has to be a free option so it's not considered a poll tax. Whether it's easy to obtain that free ID is usually in the eye of the beholder.

 

[unofan]

Here's the question I have:

If getting a free voter ID is a financial hardship, wouldn't getting to the polling place itself be considered a hardship?

Here in polk county, IA, home to several hundred thousand people, there are only two dmv stations where you can get an ID, one for renewals only. Add in county election offices, and thatd be potentially 3 places to get a free ID that are only open M-F and maybe Sat. mornings.

The city of Ankeny, a town of 40k within polk county, itself has a dozen polling places in addition to early voting hours. Des Moines has like 50 polling spots.

You really don't see a difference?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Here's the question I have:

If getting a free voter ID is a financial hardship, wouldn't getting to the polling place itself be considered a hardship?

True. Soon there will be a Constitutional right created for free transportation to the polling location. Otherwise we've violated someone's voting rights.

And I agree that it's unfathomable that people don't have some form of legitimate ID already. This thing just isn't nearly as complicated or difficult as opponents try to make it sound.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

True. Soon there will be a Constitutional right created for free transportation to the polling location. Otherwise we've violated someone's voting rights.

And I agree that it's unfathomable that people don't have some form of legitimate ID already. This thing just isn't nearly as complicated or difficult as opponents try to make it sound.

Yes it is, or the GOP wouldn't be wasting their time with it. The fact that it will be difficult is precisely what makes it worthwhile as a GOP agenda item.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Yes it is, or the GOP wouldn't be wasting their time with it. The fact that it will be difficult is precisely what makes it worthwhile as a GOP agenda item.

Many things are much more difficult than they have to be when partisan politics gets involved. This is a great example.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

You make some valid points and I agree with most of what you say. The Brennan Center does not believe in Voter ID laws and they make an argument why they are not needed so yes they are only giving one side of the story. However, the report shows that there are millions of people without the required ID and for many of them it would be a financial burden to get it. This sounds incredible to those who are comfortable in life but it is a reality for many who live in poverty.

As to your disagreement with the Brennan stance that since the problem of voter fraud is so small it does not need to be addressed I go back to what I said in my original post. Does a law requiring voter ID make sense if it stops 50 cases of voter fraud but disenfranchises 10,000 legitimate voters?

JF does make another point, though: If it's such a financial burden to get a voter ID, and let's just assume for the sake of argument that it will follow the 24th Amendment and allow the ID board to access the databases of birth/naturalization and social security information with a government subsidy (and we'll use the argument I've heard from many lefties of "It's 2013!" and assume that this information is available via computer database), is it a financial burden to actually go and vote?