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2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

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Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Old Pio said:
Class, since Trucker was evidently sleeping it off, I'll explain it again: It is difficult to establish "voter suppression" in an election where the allegedly suppressed voters turned out in massively greater numbers than just four years previous. It's a warm, comforting myth that Jeb Bush "stole" Florida for "W." The sort of thing Libstains use to scare little libstains when they're sitting around a campfire. The narrative is only missing credible evidence.

Please recall, the many media recounts in Florida all found Bush winning, with just one exception. If you count overvotes. People who voted for two presidential candidates. Well, generally speaking, even Libstains understand you only get one bite of the presidential apple. Not two.

Your whining about mythical "voter suppression" might be a bit more credible if you displayed any concern at all for Gore's extensive effort to disenfranchise GI's serving overseas.
Click to expand...

Thousands of eligible voters were disenfranchised and most of them were Dems. Read about ChoicePoint and DBT if you want to know what really happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint

Here's an excerpt from the Civil Rights Commission Report on 2000 Florida Elections:

Although the Commission's record reflects that the Division of Elections is responsible for coordinating two statewide workshops annually for the supervisors of elections to ensure uniformity in the interpretation of Florida election laws, the complaints registered by some supervisors of elections suggest that there was no common understanding of the use of the exclusion lists. The Florida legislature's decision to privatize its list maintenance procedures without establishing effective clear guidance for these private efforts from the highest levels, coupled with the absence of uniform and reliable verification procedures, resulted in countless eligible voters being deprived of their right to vote.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

trucker said:
Thousands of eligible voters were disenfranchised and most of them were Dems. Read about ChoicePoint and DBT if you want to know what really happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint

Here's an excerpt from the Civil Rights Commission Report on 2000 Florida Elections:

Although the Commission's record reflects that the Division of Elections is responsible for coordinating two statewide workshops annually for the supervisors of elections to ensure uniformity in the interpretation of Florida election laws, the complaints registered by some supervisors of elections suggest that there was no common understanding of the use of the exclusion lists. The Florida legislature's decision to privatize its list maintenance procedures without establishing effective clear guidance for these private efforts from the highest levels, coupled with the absence of uniform and reliable verification procedures, resulted in countless eligible voters being deprived of their right to vote.
Click to expand...

To pull a page from the lefties: If it's from Wikipedia, you KNOW it's true! :D:D:D:D:D

I'm surprised you aren't talking about the disenfranchised voters in Pennsylvania, with the whole Black Panther thing in Philadelphia.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Interesting statistic on yesterday's Morning Joe.
...Almost no gun crime is committed by people who actually purchase the gun......About 3-3.5% of gun crime is committed by the person who actually owns the gun.
Click to expand...
The initial premise of the current topic here was that the arguments for and against voter ID and back round checks to purchase a gun are similar. Based on that, one could take this fact, use the recent rhetoric used against voter ID and say back round checks are issue looking for a problem. ;)

For my money, I side with Bob here, do them both.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

You're right. The second amendment can't be stopped. Just all the other ones.

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Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

trucker said:
Thousands of eligible voters were disenfranchised and most of them were Dems. Read about ChoicePoint and DBT if you want to know what really happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint

Here's an excerpt from the Civil Rights Commission Report on 2000 Florida Elections:

Although the Commission's record reflects that the Division of Elections is responsible for coordinating two statewide workshops annually for the supervisors of elections to ensure uniformity in the interpretation of Florida election laws, the complaints registered by some supervisors of elections suggest that there was no common understanding of the use of the exclusion lists. The Florida legislature's decision to privatize its list maintenance procedures without establishing effective clear guidance for these private efforts from the highest levels, coupled with the absence of uniform and reliable verification procedures, resulted in countless eligible voters being deprived of their right to vote.
Click to expand...

60% increase in voting by blacks in Florida in 2000.
 
trucker said:
Thousands of eligible voters were disenfranchised and most of them were Dems. Read about ChoicePoint and DBT if you want to know what really happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChoicePoint

Here's an excerpt from the Civil Rights Commission Report on 2000 Florida Elections:

Although the Commission's record reflects that the Division of Elections is responsible for coordinating two statewide workshops annually for the supervisors of elections to ensure uniformity in the interpretation of Florida election laws, the complaints registered by some supervisors of elections suggest that there was no common understanding of the use of the exclusion lists. The Florida legislature's decision to privatize its list maintenance procedures without establishing effective clear guidance for these private efforts from the highest levels, coupled with the absence of uniform and reliable verification procedures, resulted in countless eligible voters being deprived of their right to vote.
Click to expand...

trucker, as a liberal I do sympathize with the problems down in FL during the 2000 election. My point isn't that the process down there wasn't screwed up, nor that its possible some people who wanted to vote weren't allowed. My problem is it never should have gotten to that, and had Gore simply requested a recount of the entire state from the get-go he may have found the voters he needed anyway. Problem with Dems of Gore's era, and this is true of Kerry's campaign also (think the Shrums, MacAuliffs, Penns, etc of political operatives) is that they expect someone else to do the nitty gritty work for them. Elections are hard. Expect the other side to pull out all the stops. Don't sit around with your thumb up your @ ss and expect Kathleen Harris to do the right thing when certifying the election winner.

Case in point was this past election. GOP in FL decided to restrict early voting in the hopes of limiting Obama votes. Instead of crying about it, Obama campaign simply mobilized voters to cast ballots on the available days. While people like Opie and Flagg were expecting to celebrate a Mittens victory, GOP operatives in some counties were confiding to the press that they were getting killed in early voting as the Dems were getting more first time, young, and/or minority voters to the polls. Come election night, they like all conservatives were crying in their beer.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Bob Gray said:
Wait until he starts forcing you to invest in certain ways.
Click to expand...

That already happens indirectly with 401k plans, although not government enforced. I would more expect the government to pull a Cyprus.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

FlagDUDE08 said:
What a shocker, now the messiah dictator wants to tell you how much you can put into a 401k. :rolleyes: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/obama_budget_clipping_rBTRDGwonfmWn4TvZ3eWZO
Click to expand...

Do you or Bob know how 401K's work? They're tax deferred. Which means that the government has always controlled how much you can put in them and they have a vested interest in how much goes in there. Don't like it use a ROTH. Government has zero control over that.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

ScoobyDoo said:
Do you or Bob know how 401K's work? They're tax deferred. Which means that the government has always controlled how much you can put in them and they have a vested interest in how much goes in there. Don't like it use a ROTH. Government has zero control over that.
Click to expand...

Do you know how ROTH's [gic] work? They're tax exempt (at least in terms of earnings). The government CURRENTLY limits not only how much you can put in them, but if you're even allowed to use them, and they have a vested interest in how much goes in there.

http://www.rothira.com/roth-ira-limits
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

ScoobyDoo said:
Do you or Bob know how 401K's work? They're tax deferred. Which means that the government has always controlled how much you can put in them and they have a vested interest in how much goes in there. Don't like it use a ROTH. Government has zero control over that.
Click to expand...
I know more about a 401K than you know how to read what I posted apparently.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Ummm...what exactly is the problem again? 401K's are tax deferred. Hence, as the taxing entity in this country, the gubmint gets to set the rules as to how much you can defer. Don't like it? Then don't use a 401K. There are plenty of other investments out there (stocks, bonds, real estate, gold bullion, etc) that you can put funds into, only those are not tax deferred of course.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Rover said:
Ummm...what exactly is the problem again? 401K's are tax deferred. Hence, as the taxing entity in this country, the gubmint gets to set the rules as to how much you can defer. Don't like it? Then don't use a 401K. There are plenty of other investments out there (stocks, bonds, real estate, gold bullion, etc) that you can put funds into, only those are not tax deferred of course.
Click to expand...
Dont you think its a little crazy to not only max the amount we can invest annually but also limit the maximum value? It seems a bit difficult to expect my company to do the work of telling the government I have too much in my 401k despite following their annual investment limits, not to mention I assume this is total of all 401k type investments so if I switch jobs, someone has to know how much my roll-over elsewhere is worth. This just seems to be creating needless expense in managing my 401k even if its nowhere near the $3.4 mil cap which in the long run will cost me money in additional management fees, which is not good for me but is good for wall street. It just seems stupid to put this cap on things if there is already a cap on investment limits.
 
Re: 2nd Term - Part 3 - Echo Chambers, Chorales, and Wingnuts, Oh My!

Shirtless Guy said:
Dont you think its a little crazy to not only max the amount we can invest annually but also limit the maximum value? It seems a bit difficult to expect my company to do the work of telling the government I have too much in my 401k despite following their annual investment limits, not to mention I assume this is total of all 401k type investments so if I switch jobs, someone has to know how much my roll-over elsewhere is worth. This just seems to be creating needless expense in managing my 401k even if its nowhere near the $3.4 mil cap which in the long run will cost me money in additional management fees, which is not good for me but is good for wall street. It just seems stupid to put this cap on things if there is already a cap on investment limits.
Click to expand...

One point that Bill's link makes is that what is going to happen to that excess money? I know we hear all of this cawing about off-shore accounts, but that's one of the things you're competing with. Sure, make all of the emotional arguments you want, but money shows no emotion. Once the messiah dictator understands that the country has to be competitive in order to keep business, then we'll be able to actually get somewhere.

BTW, management fees is not "good for wall street", unless you invest in a financial company that provides those sorts of services.
 
Shirtless Guy said:
Dont you think its a little crazy to not only max the amount we can invest annually but also limit the maximum value? It seems a bit difficult to expect my company to do the work of telling the government I have too much in my 401k despite following their annual investment limits, not to mention I assume this is total of all 401k type investments so if I switch jobs, someone has to know how much my roll-over elsewhere is worth. This just seems to be creating needless expense in managing my 401k even if its nowhere near the $3.4 mil cap which in the long run will cost me money in additional management fees, which is not good for me but is good for wall street. It just seems stupid to put this cap on things if there is already a cap on investment limits.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be my first policy choice, mostly because I'm not sure how much of a benefit the govt would get from it, presumably in the form of less tax exemptions for people to take advantage of. For that goal a cap on annual deductions would achieve the same result. However, I don't find it to be crazy. The govt can define that terms of a tax shelter that it allows however it wants. Were it 401K's were the only investment vehicle out there, a change like this might be burdensome. However, there are plenty of other ways to save for retirement.
 
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