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2020 Patty Kazmaier
- Thread starter Timothy A
- Start date
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
Sure, the NHL has a host of them. For the last 10 years there was a statistical pattern in regards to forwards that was the end result of the voting. Those voters weighted scoring high. It just could not have been happenstance that the most worthy from a non-scoring perspective just happened to be the top or 2nd place scorer. Let's be real. There are former voters for the PK who post here, I would love to get their general perspective on how they voted in the past when the high scorers were not only in the top 3, but won. Not to have Watts in the top 3 is just criminal, there is no wat around that.
Someday T3 will spill his guts on how this went down.
Sure, the NHL has a host of them. For the last 10 years there was a statistical pattern in regards to forwards that was the end result of the voting. Those voters weighted scoring high. It just could not have been happenstance that the most worthy from a non-scoring perspective just happened to be the top or 2nd place scorer. Let's be real. There are former voters for the PK who post here, I would love to get their general perspective on how they voted in the past when the high scorers were not only in the top 3, but won. Not to have Watts in the top 3 is just criminal, there is no wat around that.
Someday T3 will spill his guts on how this went down.
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
The whole thing depends on how much a committee member wants to talk or advocate for someone. Some people on the call won't say much of anything. Others will contribute to every person's time. Sometimes the coach of a nominated player is on the committee that year. Sometimes when that happens, a coach talks more. Sometimes that coach will only submit the written statement same as any other coach but not add more. Sometimes the coach will be new to the conference or to DI hockey and won't have as much history or background to use to talk about someone. Sometimes it'll end up that one of the coaches has seen and played against a player a TON and can really advocate for or against them. There are a LOT of variables that affect how any one year's conversation goes down.
The award does tend to base heavily on statistics simply because it's voted on by coaches who are busy with their job while everyone else is playing, so they don't sit around watching a ton of other games. They might be able to talk a bit about someone they play two, three, four times a year, but that's usually the extent of it. So the numbers are what they HAVE to use. I said this in last week's WW, but one of the things that I think plays into it a good deal is League POY winners. And that's because the committee coaches are trusting the opinion of the individual conference coaches to know their own players the best. So that holds weight with voting members who can't see the players play as much.
My first year on the committee was when Coyne won and she and Carpenter had separated themselves so far from the rest of the field - but to my point, Carp has more points, but Coyne was HE POY. Their point totals were high, but they were also clearly the best players in the country. Desbiens was the third player in the top 3. The next year Desbiens won. So I'm not a great resource for sharing much on how a conversation might have gone discussing not top scorers or point totals.
Does any of that help?
The whole thing depends on how much a committee member wants to talk or advocate for someone. Some people on the call won't say much of anything. Others will contribute to every person's time. Sometimes the coach of a nominated player is on the committee that year. Sometimes when that happens, a coach talks more. Sometimes that coach will only submit the written statement same as any other coach but not add more. Sometimes the coach will be new to the conference or to DI hockey and won't have as much history or background to use to talk about someone. Sometimes it'll end up that one of the coaches has seen and played against a player a TON and can really advocate for or against them. There are a LOT of variables that affect how any one year's conversation goes down.
The award does tend to base heavily on statistics simply because it's voted on by coaches who are busy with their job while everyone else is playing, so they don't sit around watching a ton of other games. They might be able to talk a bit about someone they play two, three, four times a year, but that's usually the extent of it. So the numbers are what they HAVE to use. I said this in last week's WW, but one of the things that I think plays into it a good deal is League POY winners. And that's because the committee coaches are trusting the opinion of the individual conference coaches to know their own players the best. So that holds weight with voting members who can't see the players play as much.
My first year on the committee was when Coyne won and she and Carpenter had separated themselves so far from the rest of the field - but to my point, Carp has more points, but Coyne was HE POY. Their point totals were high, but they were also clearly the best players in the country. Desbiens was the third player in the top 3. The next year Desbiens won. So I'm not a great resource for sharing much on how a conversation might have gone discussing not top scorers or point totals.
Does any of that help?
Hockeynation
New member
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
Very Solid picks. All worthy of top 3 selection. I have had the opportunity to watch them all play this year and they all have dynamic impact on their individual team's success. All fantastic players unique in their playing styles. However number 7 from Clarkson wins this award. Not only because of her strong season but her body of work to date.
Very Solid picks. All worthy of top 3 selection. I have had the opportunity to watch them all play this year and they all have dynamic impact on their individual team's success. All fantastic players unique in their playing styles. However number 7 from Clarkson wins this award. Not only because of her strong season but her body of work to date.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
I've always thought that the WCHA coaches in general are very loyal when it comes to voting for the Kazmaier or league awards. They want to honor the seniors in particular whenever they can. If somebody is deserving and doesn't fit on the All-WCHA teams, then there will be an attempt to get her on the All-tournament team or recognize her in a future season, when possible. I wouldn't be surprised if there was support of Roque from WCHA coaches built up over the years. They would support Watts, but not to the same degree after only one year. As for the HEA coaches, I can see where they would be quicker to speak up for Mueller, who is still in that league.
Criminal? In 2005, Nicole Corriero had 59 goals in 36 games, and her 91 points where 22 more than her highest teammate. She didn't make the top three. It wasn't criminal. It was just how it worked out that year. This year, Roque got the Wisconsin spot, just like Gabel got the nod over Giguère last year. Once Wisconsin slumped heading into the voting, it was going to be tough for a pair of Badgers to be top three.
I've been on committees where a coach on the committee has multiple players up for consideration, and heard reports from others who've listened in on similar discussions, both recently and as many as 15 years ago. Usually, the coach says something that isn't blatant, but is still telling. The coach is asked about each of his/her players when it is time to discuss them. For Player A: "Just a really skilled hockey player. I'm amazed at what she can do with the puck when she puts her mind to it." For Player B: "A really fun player to watch, a smooth skater, and a nice kid who is only going to get better." For Player C: "It's been an honor to coach her for four years, and I can't even put into words what she has meant to our program. She sees the game like nobody I've ever seen before and makes everyone around her better. I'm sure she's not even thinking about this award or anything beyond helping her teammates win a championship, but there is nobody more deserving." They don't explicitly tell you who to vote for, but yet, they kind of do, unless it truly is a season where they would like to split the award down the middle and give a couple of their players half of it.
I've always thought that the WCHA coaches in general are very loyal when it comes to voting for the Kazmaier or league awards. They want to honor the seniors in particular whenever they can. If somebody is deserving and doesn't fit on the All-WCHA teams, then there will be an attempt to get her on the All-tournament team or recognize her in a future season, when possible. I wouldn't be surprised if there was support of Roque from WCHA coaches built up over the years. They would support Watts, but not to the same degree after only one year. As for the HEA coaches, I can see where they would be quicker to speak up for Mueller, who is still in that league.
Criminal? In 2005, Nicole Corriero had 59 goals in 36 games, and her 91 points where 22 more than her highest teammate. She didn't make the top three. It wasn't criminal. It was just how it worked out that year. This year, Roque got the Wisconsin spot, just like Gabel got the nod over Giguère last year. Once Wisconsin slumped heading into the voting, it was going to be tough for a pair of Badgers to be top three.
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
Agreed these are worthy selections. All three have had terrific years.
But for a non insider, what the #&^@%@%^!%^ is wrong with Watts that leads people to select Roque for the single Wisconsin spot? Seriously?
Roque is not the leading goal scorer on her team (Shirley is)
Roque is not the leading assist scorer on her team (Watts is)
Roque is not the leading points scorer on her team (Watts is)
Roque appears - by the stats - to be a Power play specialist (8 goals vs 6 for Shirley and 3 for Watts)
How can a forward not lead an offensive category ON HER OWN TEAM, nevermind her conference yet somehow be judged the best forward her conference and potentially player in the country? Her faceoff wins??
Anyone who has seen Watts play... well there is a reason she ends up on Sportscenter Top lists....
So, TTT won't comment, nor should he being on the committee, but what is the deal? I've heard this level of argument before with similar different-type-of-game great players (eg Messier - Gretzky, Bossy - Trottier). The latter always has much respect, but the talent of the former gets the awards.
Except here. And notably no love from Team Canada. What is the story? ..'cuz it doesn't pass the eye test.
Agreed these are worthy selections. All three have had terrific years.
But for a non insider, what the #&^@%@%^!%^ is wrong with Watts that leads people to select Roque for the single Wisconsin spot? Seriously?
Roque is not the leading goal scorer on her team (Shirley is)
Roque is not the leading assist scorer on her team (Watts is)
Roque is not the leading points scorer on her team (Watts is)
Roque appears - by the stats - to be a Power play specialist (8 goals vs 6 for Shirley and 3 for Watts)
How can a forward not lead an offensive category ON HER OWN TEAM, nevermind her conference yet somehow be judged the best forward her conference and potentially player in the country? Her faceoff wins??
Anyone who has seen Watts play... well there is a reason she ends up on Sportscenter Top lists....
So, TTT won't comment, nor should he being on the committee, but what is the deal? I've heard this level of argument before with similar different-type-of-game great players (eg Messier - Gretzky, Bossy - Trottier). The latter always has much respect, but the talent of the former gets the awards.
Except here. And notably no love from Team Canada. What is the story? ..'cuz it doesn't pass the eye test.
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
Can someone explain how a player that is not the lead assist getter or goal scorer on her team is somehow the best forward in her conference and -- possibly - the best player in the country?
Something doesnt add up - plus add that to Watts seemingly getting no love from Hockey Canada.. whats the deal?
Can someone explain how a player that is not the lead assist getter or goal scorer on her team is somehow the best forward in her conference and -- possibly - the best player in the country?
Something doesnt add up - plus add that to Watts seemingly getting no love from Hockey Canada.. whats the deal?
FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
When you you need someone who will mix it up and be a thorn in the opposition's side... When you need to win a puck battle along the boards...When you need to win a face-off...When you need a clutch goal, you need Abby Roque.
She can't do push-ups.
When you you need someone who will mix it up and be a thorn in the opposition's side... When you need to win a puck battle along the boards...When you need to win a face-off...When you need a clutch goal, you need Abby Roque.
She can't do push-ups.
robertearle
Well-known member
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
I'll give it a shot, though I'm not sure how satisfactory you'll find it (I wish it did a better job, myself).
Statistically, the two things I would point you to are faceoffs and faceoff-wins, and blocked shots. Roque is in the top ten in the WCHA in blocked shots, and leads the WCHA in faceoff wins - by a mile - and faceoff win percentage.
Beyond that, stuff like 'puck possession', 'ice time' etc. I've never been crazy about people saying "intangibles", but "intangibles". "The eye test". It would be interesting to poll Wisconsin season ticket holders and ask "who is the team's MVP". I don't think it would be 'unanimous', but it might get close; 'landslide' for sure.
Watts is a great, great player, and I'm very glad she chose Wisconsin. But Abby Roque is this team's MVP.
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EDIT: Top ten in blocked shots for forwards, of course. Sorry 'bout that.
I'll give it a shot, though I'm not sure how satisfactory you'll find it (I wish it did a better job, myself).
Statistically, the two things I would point you to are faceoffs and faceoff-wins, and blocked shots. Roque is in the top ten in the WCHA in blocked shots, and leads the WCHA in faceoff wins - by a mile - and faceoff win percentage.
Beyond that, stuff like 'puck possession', 'ice time' etc. I've never been crazy about people saying "intangibles", but "intangibles". "The eye test". It would be interesting to poll Wisconsin season ticket holders and ask "who is the team's MVP". I don't think it would be 'unanimous', but it might get close; 'landslide' for sure.
Watts is a great, great player, and I'm very glad she chose Wisconsin. But Abby Roque is this team's MVP.
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EDIT: Top ten in blocked shots for forwards, of course. Sorry 'bout that.
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Reddington
Well-known member
KDR gets no love or hasn't received much love from Hockey Canada either. It's Hockey Canada.
USA has its own problems, nobody but USA hockey thinks a certain d from a Hockey East School should have made the team. There is a disconnect.
It is time that the Women copy the men and have a young North American team so that the players that don't have the papal blessing have a chance to compete at the highest level.
Of course, they would never let that happen, because if the island of misfit toys won, it would show ..... You can fill in the blanks.
robertearle
Well-known member
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
It might be fun to watch Mauermann and Roque go against each other in the corner for the puck, but otherwise... yeah, what he said.
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(Adding: I don't remember who it was exactly, or I'd give the credit, but I remember hearing some undersized UW linebacker talking about how football players always say 'low man wins' because of 'leverage. etc', and he said "I'm not small; I've been blessed with leverage". Mauermann has been blessed with leverage.)
It might be fun to watch Mauermann and Roque go against each other in the corner for the puck, but otherwise... yeah, what he said.
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(Adding: I don't remember who it was exactly, or I'd give the credit, but I remember hearing some undersized UW linebacker talking about how football players always say 'low man wins' because of 'leverage. etc', and he said "I'm not small; I've been blessed with leverage". Mauermann has been blessed with leverage.)
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FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
Leather helmet
New member
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
I'll be honest...if Tim had provided a weekly 'Roque Report' with current stats, I wouldn't have been surprised by her inclusion in this group.
I'll be honest...if Tim had provided a weekly 'Roque Report' with current stats, I wouldn't have been surprised by her inclusion in this group.
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
You will enjoy this article: sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/25-powerful-women-hockey/
Watts is the only current NCAA player mentioned. Shirley, Fillier and Rouqe get a passing mention in her section.
No idea what Hockey Canada is thinking? But Giguere is another who is passed over by Hockey Canada. And Gebhard.... I can go on.
You will enjoy this article: sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/25-powerful-women-hockey/
Watts is the only current NCAA player mentioned. Shirley, Fillier and Rouqe get a passing mention in her section.
No idea what Hockey Canada is thinking? But Giguere is another who is passed over by Hockey Canada. And Gebhard.... I can go on.
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
Hi there.
Thanks for the knowledgeable reply.
I've seen a handful of Wisconsin games and a load of Watts' East Coast games.
I've heard these arguments in the past. Think Messier vs. Gretz. Think Trottier vs. Bossy. No doubt the former are great - great players and instrumental to their teams. Never an MVP award on a head-to-head with their clearly more talented teammate.
But I guess I am wrong as Roque is the one they put up. Is it a lack of discipline?? Pushups? Seriously?!?!?
Hi there.
Thanks for the knowledgeable reply.
I've seen a handful of Wisconsin games and a load of Watts' East Coast games.
I've heard these arguments in the past. Think Messier vs. Gretz. Think Trottier vs. Bossy. No doubt the former are great - great players and instrumental to their teams. Never an MVP award on a head-to-head with their clearly more talented teammate.
But I guess I am wrong as Roque is the one they put up. Is it a lack of discipline?? Pushups? Seriously?!?!?
Offsides Guy
Active member
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
I wish I could remember where I heard this but I can't so take it with a grain of salt. Supposedly Watts work/training ethic is what has kept her off Team Canada's list.
I wish I could remember where I heard this but I can't so take it with a grain of salt. Supposedly Watts work/training ethic is what has kept her off Team Canada's list.
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
Interesting.
So , HC goes with older players and misses picking up the ladies in College. And is slowly eroding as #1 to world #2. Interesting.
Interesting.
So , HC goes with older players and misses picking up the ladies in College. And is slowly eroding as #1 to world #2. Interesting.
I can’t imagine Canada is ranked #1 in the world right now. That would be some strange math. Both USA Hockey and Hockey Canada should be working theirs butts off with the likes of CW NW or whatever to find a home for all this talent in a pro league. It’s soooo frustrating. But they just say it’s not in their mandate. Ugh.
Is Melody Davidson the problem?
Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier
Agreed. - it is just that it has been a close back and forth for so long and it seems like Team USA is starting to separate from the pack (of one).
Agreed. - it is just that it has been a close back and forth for so long and it seems like Team USA is starting to separate from the pack (of one).