2020 Democratic Challengers

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

But the dems aren't really doing anything for the working class/poor and haven't for a long time. Especially with minorities.

Disagree with this with two examples. First the ACA massively expanded Medicaid. That benefits the working class/poor. Second Dodd-Frank enacted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The uber rich aren't the ones taking advantage of the protections that this Elisabeth Warren creation conveys on the populace.

I know you're a staunch liberal but you really do a disservice to the cause if you're not going to acknowledge victories when they come about. As I said before, it plays right into the hands of the knuckledraggers who want to argue that the gubmint ain't a doin' nuttin for no one except grabbing gunz.

Now if you want to argue the Dems haven't done anything jobs wise for these people, sure, but I don't think that's a problem anybody has a solution for yet as opposed to ignoring it.

 

[joecct]

How has it ignored them? The Dems are still the party of the laborer. The GOP has done such a great job at selling you on this. They pay lip service to them and then bend them over the table and **** them. You've bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

re Read paragraph 4.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Disagree with this with two examples. First the ACA massively expanded Medicaid. That benefits the working class/poor. Second Dodd-Frank enacted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The uber rich aren't the ones taking advantage of the protections that this Elisabeth Warren creation conveys on the populace....

herein lies your problem. 'working' class don't see themselves as being in or needing any "aid" program. THAT is for the browns coming over the wall. while you are right, the framing of it creates your issues (issue being, of course, tD getting your traditional voters. and to an extent W before him). white bubba worker isn't in the same boat as those needed aid. he prolly is, but if you put a mirror in front of him you are going to have something happen that isn't what you want or need.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

herein lies your problem. 'working' class don't see themselves as being in or needing any "aid" program. THAT is for the browns coming over the wall. while you are right, the framing of it creates your issues (issue being, of course, tD getting your traditional voters. and to an extent W before him). white bubba worker isn't in the same boat as those needed aid. he prolly is, but if you put a mirror in front of him you are going to have something happen that isn't what you want or need.

Mostly I agree, up until someone threatens to take it away. Case in point, the stunning lack of appeal of any Obamacare repeal effort. I'd also point out the auto industry bail out. Where Dems fail, somewhat repeatedly, is an ability to run on things they've actually done before moving on to something else. Sometimes its okay to spike the football. In Obama's successful re-election effort, voters in MI and OH were reminded continuously of Romney's position on the US auto industry vs Obama's actual accomplishment. Of course you can't keep going back to the well, but Goopers have handed the Dems a simple but effective issue. If you re-elect a GOP Congress, they will eventually take away your Medicare/Medicaid and give it to billionaires in the form of a tax cut. The desire is there, all they need are the numbers.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Disagree with this with two examples. First the ACA massively expanded Medicaid. That benefits the working class/poor. Second Dodd-Frank enacted the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The uber rich aren't the ones taking advantage of the protections that this Elisabeth Warren creation conveys on the populace.

I know you're a staunch liberal but you really do a disservice to the cause if you're not going to acknowledge victories when they come about. As I said before, it plays right into the hands of the knuckledraggers who want to argue that the gubmint ain't a doin' nuttin for no one except grabbing gunz.

Now if you want to argue the Dems haven't done anything jobs wise for these people, sure, but I don't think that's a problem anybody has a solution for yet as opposed to ignoring it.

Yeah, ACA, the signature piece of legislation by the dems where they negotiated against themselves and gave us healthcare that we were forced to buy through private insurance companies. I mean yeah it's better than what Trump is trying to give us and better than what it was previously but they could've and should've done a lot better than that. It basically explains why 2010 was such a disaster for dems.

I'll agree that Dodd-Frank is a good piece of legislation from what I understand but remember who got rid of a lot of these protections in the first place.

As far as playing right into knuckle draggers' hands, the dem establishment/centrists have done a far better job of this as recent history has shown.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

The GOP is far worse about this don't get me wrong, it'd be a false equivalency of the highest magnitude to argue otherwise. But the dems aren't really doing anything for the working class/poor and haven't for a long time. Especially with minorities.

The GOP serves the rich, the Dems serve the middle class, and nobody serves the poor. That's been the way it's been since Dems chose to fund the Vietnam War over the Great Society.

The liberal-worker alliance had a built-in self destruct mechanism: workers are socially right wing. Poverty breeds ignorance and with it religious fundamentalism, militarism, and racism. This is why at this point in history liberals may have to give up on white workers: their values suck. The Democrats already did this but did it for the wrong reasons (they were infiltrated by the rich). Ironically we can make the transition to be officially the party of the middle class by changing only a few policies. We should still bleed the rich but we should use the money for middle class people who respect civilized values.

We should give the white worker what he's always said he wants: to be left alone. So let the GOP strip away their health care and social security. But don't replace them -- instead move our efforts to bolstering and growing a socially liberal middle class. Let poor conservatives have their laissez fair garden of Eden economically. Stop risking the life guard by trying to save a drowning victim who also wants to drown you.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Given how much larger the middle class used to be I'm not even sure they do that honestly. They claim to but then when push comes to shove they don't really do anything to help the middle class.

The dems just see their constituents as marketing subjects where they just need to somehow get X amount without really caring about the actual issue itself. Like when they try to come up with a way to get pro-life candidates to try and get more people from that side of the aisle when in reality it just comes off as super disingenuous.

Anyhow I've probably side-tracked this thread enough.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Given how much larger the middle class used to be I'm not even sure they do that honestly. They claim to but then when push comes to shove they don't really do anything to help the middle class.

The GOP is destroying the middle class because it has to: educated non-rich people are liberal. The right has tried to destroy education to hit the first adjective while establishing a feudal pyramid to hit the second one. We should put all our energy into restoring both adjectives. Massive increases in education and a roll-back of the orcs' blurring of science and superstition. STEM, social science, and liberal arts on steroids. Free college in exchange for part-time national service: an intellectual national guard fighting intolerance, neo-fascism, bigotry, and religious literalism.

Stop funding business and start funding consumers. Stop funding job creators and start subsidizing job doers. Flip the whole supply/demand equation on its head: start working for people and let the service providers for those people stand or fall strictly on their own merits. Socialize profit, privatize risk.

Go all in on "Elitism." Create tax advantages for the intellectually and ethically elite. Index teacher pay to Fortune 500 CEOs. Exchange the military budget and the state department budget. Shut down military contracts and replace them with domestic contracts to provide health care, information technology, continuing education, better food, etc to middle class families.

Reprioritize and stop throwing all our money at the poor. As the GOP would say, stop subsidizing failure. Instead, assist people to get into the middle class and then reward the middle class as the main engine of economic growth and consumption.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Yeah, ACA, the signature piece of legislation by the dems where they negotiated against themselves and gave us healthcare that we were forced to buy through private insurance companies. I mean yeah it's better than what Trump is trying to give us and better than what it was previously but they could've and should've done a lot better than that. It basically explains why 2010 was such a disaster for dems.

.

I think you're glossing over the Medicaid expansion which has insured more people than the private insurance subsidies...

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Mostly I agree, up until someone threatens to take it away. Case in point, the stunning lack of appeal of any Obamacare repeal effort. I'd also point out the auto industry bail out. Where Dems fail, somewhat repeatedly, is an ability to run on things they've actually done before moving on to something else. Sometimes its okay to spike the football. In Obama's successful re-election effort, voters in MI and OH were reminded continuously of Romney's position on the US auto industry vs Obama's actual accomplishment. Of course you can't keep going back to the well, but Goopers have handed the Dems a simple but effective issue. If you re-elect a GOP Congress, they will eventually take away your Medicare/Medicaid and give it to billionaires in the form of a tax cut. The desire is there, all they need are the numbers.

The real problem the Dems have is branding. They think if they explain to the teeth every policy they have people will flock to them and understand. Truth is most people dont care enough to worry about it. The Dems need to market their ideas better.

And yes they need to spike the ball more. Take pride in the good things you have done. Is the ACA the best thing ever (I hate it personally) no of course not but it is certainly better than what we had by leaps and bounds. Embrace it. Stop worrying about what polls say and just stand by your ideals and your accomplishments. The people might hate them in the abstract, but as the ACA has proven when it hits close to home they change their tune. (see also: FEMA)

Whoever is the nominee is next cycle (and in the midterms) needs to run on that style. If we get some passive resistant wishy washy intellectual speaking in high platitudes and worrying about his favorability numbers Trump will crush him. They need to take a page from Czar Urea's handbook, forget the polls and talk about what makes you great and what makes them suck. When they talk deficits talk about how the only balanced budgets happen with Dem Presidents. When they talk about bailouts talk about how they wouldnt be needed if the GOP didnt cut regulations. When they rail against ObamaCare remind the people which party wanted to kick them off of health care and which one wanted them covered. And every day remind the people who got rich when the GOP controlled things and who got poorer. If you do that, and you stand with courage behind your convictions you will win. (and if you dont win, then screw everyone anyways they get what they deserve)

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

I think you're glossing over the Medicaid expansion which has insured more people than the private insurance subsidies...

That's certainly a good thing. And yet now they're negotiating with the republicans to further gut Obama's signature legislation.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

That's certainly a good thing. And yet now they're negotiating with the republicans to further gut Obama's signature legislation.

The Democrats are negotiating with Republicans to gut the ACA??? Please explain.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

https://twitter.com/Alexruoff/status/910286417422626817

 

[aparch]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

That's hardly gutting.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Probably the most important part of ACA was the part about pre-existing conditions and if I'm understanding that correctly that's one of the concessions they were willing to make here. Despite the fact that they know full well it's gonna just get repealed anyhow

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

There is no reason for a D to vote for Cassidy. The only reason the GOP would need them would be if they can't get to 50, and if they can't get to 50 then Obamacare stays on the books.

OTOH, the reason for the Ds to negotiate with the Republicans is to burn the clock. The GOP only has a few more days before they can no longer use reconciliation. I'd rather me be talking to McConnell than Collins, because the more time McConnell invests in me the more he loses when at the last minute I have a change of heart.

The only time you negotiate with terrorists is when you are playing for time while the police trace the call.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Probably the most important part of ACA was the part about pre-existing conditions and if I'm understanding that correctly that's one of the concessions they were willing to make here. Despite the fact that they know full well it's gonna just get repealed anyhow

Nowhere in that tweet does it say that and no article I have seen says Dems are willing to get rid of that. Seeing as everyone in the Dem leadership has flat out said they will never vote for a plan that gets rid of pre-existing conditions I am not sure where you are getting your information.

Hell even the GOP (including Trump) have said they want to protect pre-existing conditions. (they are lying but still)

Am I misunderstanding you?

 

[trixR4kids]

Nowhere in that tweet does it say that and no article I have seen says Dems are willing to get rid of that. Seeing as everyone in the Dem leadership has flat out said they will never vote for a plan that gets rid of pre-existing conditions I am not sure where you are getting your information.

Hell even the GOP (including Trump) have said they want to protect pre-existing conditions. (they are lying but still)

Am I misunderstanding you?

Isn't that what conceding on waiver authority means? https://www.cbpp.org/blog/cassidy-grahams-waiver-authority-would-gut-protections-for-people-with-pre-existing-conditions

The GOP is looking to flat out repeal ACA so not sure what you're talking about there.

That said maybe I am misunderstanding, not fully ruling that out

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Yes the bill itself would gut that sure but there is no evidence the Dems are agreeing to those cuts...you seem to be implying that where there is zero evidence. Hell the last round the one thing they wouldnt even discuss in passing was letting go of PEC they certainly arent going to now when they have all the leverage. Cassidy-Graham cannot and will not pass unless they join.

And what I am saying is that the idea of doing so is so unpopular that the GOP is lying about it pretending it wont be effected. If it is so bad they would lie about it why would the Dems pull a 180 and let them do it?

So again I am trying to understand your point. Are you saying the GOP wants to gut PEC cause if so you are right. Are yousuggesting the Dems are negotiating with them to allow such a gutting cause if so then I see no evidence that is true.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Well the tweet in question's source is Schumer's spokesperson and he's admitting to negotiating with republicans to strip out copper plans and concede on the waiver authority (which I thought was referring to the pre-existing conditions but I might be incorrect there).

Anyhow it seems like another classic case of the Dems sucking at negotiations and trying to cooperate when there's no point. That said maybe Kepler's take on that is correct and it's part of a bigger strategy. We can hope.