dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
Rich is relative.
Rich is relative.
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2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
- Thread starter MissThundercat
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mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
wolverineTrumpet
not particularly bad
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
College was the expectation in my family. It was the right choice for my brother and I.
My parents didn't push me into STEM, but they did veer me away from music and towards something with more potential earning power. Basically they said they wouldn't pay for college for me to be a music major. My love of math and science found me in engineering school.
I do think part of the problem with college costs is the demand. There are kids that college is not the right path for, but they go anyway. There are employers that want someone with a college degree even though it shouldn't be necessary for the position.
College was the expectation in my family. It was the right choice for my brother and I.
My parents didn't push me into STEM, but they did veer me away from music and towards something with more potential earning power. Basically they said they wouldn't pay for college for me to be a music major. My love of math and science found me in engineering school.
I do think part of the problem with college costs is the demand. There are kids that college is not the right path for, but they go anyway. There are employers that want someone with a college degree even though it shouldn't be necessary for the position.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
100% agree. I’d do the same thing with my kids. I knew very early on I wanted to be an engineer. When we had “Dress up as your dream job” day in first grade, I went as a mechanical engineer. I wore a lab coat and had a box of tools.
I’m glad my parents pushed me down that route. They started me using things like bread boards and chemistry sets going back as far as I remember. They made sure I was enrolling myself in math and science courses in high school.
I also completely agree with your demand assessment. We need to fix that first. I’d support a free education program if it were a two-year tech school or effectively a two-year extension or high school. I still don’t support most free college programs because it doesn’t address the demand problem. It could make it worse. We just don’t need everyone in college. We do need tradespeople. Those jobs are hard to automate and they pay well. Plus the cost of the education is a fraction of that for a bachelors.
100% agree. I’d do the same thing with my kids. I knew very early on I wanted to be an engineer. When we had “Dress up as your dream job” day in first grade, I went as a mechanical engineer. I wore a lab coat and had a box of tools.
I’m glad my parents pushed me down that route. They started me using things like bread boards and chemistry sets going back as far as I remember. They made sure I was enrolling myself in math and science courses in high school.
I also completely agree with your demand assessment. We need to fix that first. I’d support a free education program if it were a two-year tech school or effectively a two-year extension or high school. I still don’t support most free college programs because it doesn’t address the demand problem. It could make it worse. We just don’t need everyone in college. We do need tradespeople. Those jobs are hard to automate and they pay well. Plus the cost of the education is a fraction of that for a bachelors.
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
A lot of the trade jobs have been shipped overseas and had their union protections stripped away for decades so I can see why parents push their kids the other route (especially when they were the ones to vote for stripping union protections like the selfish idiot boomers they are). It always seems like the vast majority of the people/parents think trade jobs are the answer for "those kids" and aren't seriously advocating for their own kid or themselves to go that route. I do think those jobs need to be filled but generally that's a matter of employer's paying more when the economy is doing "well".
A lot of the trade jobs have been shipped overseas and had their union protections stripped away for decades so I can see why parents push their kids the other route (especially when they were the ones to vote for stripping union protections like the selfish idiot boomers they are). It always seems like the vast majority of the people/parents think trade jobs are the answer for "those kids" and aren't seriously advocating for their own kid or themselves to go that route. I do think those jobs need to be filled but generally that's a matter of employer's paying more when the economy is doing "well".
Your earning potential in the long run compared to someone with a bachelor's is almost certainly lower, that's been pretty well established for a while now.
This isn't about punishing people for taking out loans it's about doing what's most efficient for our economy and society.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
I find it fascinating that this is so hard to understand.
I find it fascinating that this is so hard to understand.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
How bouts when everyone gets their UBI check, these kids can sign it over to the bank, and mookie will go on vacation to Addis Ababa
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Trades are things like on-site welding, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, carpentry. There is a shortage of people to fill those jobs. Especially when the economy is hot.
You’re confusing them with manufacturing jobs. Which are very different.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Trades are things like on-site welding, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, carpentry. There is a shortage of people to fill those jobs. Especially when the economy is hot.
You’re confusing them with manufacturing jobs. Which are very different.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
shhhh. he was on a roll
shhhh. he was on a roll
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
Fair enough, the overseas part probably doesn't apply to the jobs you're talking about but most of these jobs pay as well as they do due to unionization and their power has eroded considerably over the years. And the earning potential still isn't as high as the upper end of what you can earn via a bachelor's (where you can get a desk job and search the internet half the day).
You're on a roll every (coherent-ish) post you makeshhhh. he was on a roll
wolverineTrumpet
not particularly bad
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
It's part of the reason some poor people vote Republican. Dems want to give "handouts". Why should Joe down the street be given food stamps so his family can eat when I had to work to earn money to feed my family? How dare someone else be given a leg up!
It's part of the reason some poor people vote Republican. Dems want to give "handouts". Why should Joe down the street be given food stamps so his family can eat when I had to work to earn money to feed my family? How dare someone else be given a leg up!
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
Yet no one blinks at all the corporate welfare. It's mind boggling.
Yet no one blinks at all the corporate welfare. It's mind boggling.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
so then... which should you concentrate on if you want to rally support to pass laws?????
so then... which should you concentrate on if you want to rally support to pass laws?????
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
Worse than that, people will disparage others getting the very "handouts" they're receiving themselves! That's the beauty of the con job the knucks are running. If Joe Six Pack's brother is collecting unemployment, he's not a bum. He's just down on his luck and can't find a decent job where he lives. BUT, those Other People that he doesn't know personally who live somewhere else? They're all mooches I tell ya!
Worse than that, people will disparage others getting the very "handouts" they're receiving themselves! That's the beauty of the con job the knucks are running. If Joe Six Pack's brother is collecting unemployment, he's not a bum. He's just down on his luck and can't find a decent job where he lives. BUT, those Other People that he doesn't know personally who live somewhere else? They're all mooches I tell ya!
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
Those people were making **** near six figures a few years out of trade school. Most of the guys on the maintenance crew still earn as much as I do, even 12 years into an engineering career. I know because I actually talked to them. I know what rates they earn because I hire and work with them daily. Even if they aren’t earning as much as an engineer out of school, they’re still earning more than the vast majority of kids.
The difference in rate at the top end of earning is washed away by the extra $100k-$200k the college student has to pay in principal and interest. Plus the fact that they will earn less out of the gate compared to trades. The advantage they build early in life could be even more dramatic if they invested that early lead and let it grow over time.
I would like to see unions strengthened again though. If we start to emphasize the trades, we need to protect them. We can definitely agree there.
Fair enough, the overseas part probably doesn't apply to the jobs you're talking about but most of these jobs pay as well as they do due to unionization and their power has eroded considerably over the years. And the earning potential still isn't as high as the upper end of what you can earn via a bachelor's (where you can get a desk job and search the internet half the day).You're on a roll every (coherent-ish) post you make
Those people were making **** near six figures a few years out of trade school. Most of the guys on the maintenance crew still earn as much as I do, even 12 years into an engineering career. I know because I actually talked to them. I know what rates they earn because I hire and work with them daily. Even if they aren’t earning as much as an engineer out of school, they’re still earning more than the vast majority of kids.
The difference in rate at the top end of earning is washed away by the extra $100k-$200k the college student has to pay in principal and interest. Plus the fact that they will earn less out of the gate compared to trades. The advantage they build early in life could be even more dramatic if they invested that early lead and let it grow over time.
I would like to see unions strengthened again though. If we start to emphasize the trades, we need to protect them. We can definitely agree there.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
This is the key to a healthy middle class. Strong unions --> high blue collar salaries --> lower college demand --> lower tuition --> less college debt. Everybody wins except the banks.
This is the key to a healthy middle class. Strong unions --> high blue collar salaries --> lower college demand --> lower tuition --> less college debt. Everybody wins except the banks.
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
That's all well and good but there's a flip side. Not to disparage the trades, but if you're working for yourself you're also taking on a lot of extra costs that someone in a college degree related white collar job isn't. Stretch your imagination for a second and imagine me as a desk jockey/corporate stiff. Based on my modest compensation, the company will contribute approx. 10% to my retirement including salary+bonus+stock awards+profit sharing. Then there's 5 weeks of paid vacation. A few bucks to fund the HSA. Paying 2/3rds of health insurance and payroll taxes. 16 weeks paid maternity/paternity leave. Now 100-200K in student loans, unless you're a doctor, is absurd. But, there is a reward to be reaped for paying for a college education.
That's all well and good but there's a flip side. Not to disparage the trades, but if you're working for yourself you're also taking on a lot of extra costs that someone in a college degree related white collar job isn't. Stretch your imagination for a second and imagine me as a desk jockey/corporate stiff. Based on my modest compensation, the company will contribute approx. 10% to my retirement including salary+bonus+stock awards+profit sharing. Then there's 5 weeks of paid vacation. A few bucks to fund the HSA. Paying 2/3rds of health insurance and payroll taxes. 16 weeks paid maternity/paternity leave. Now 100-200K in student loans, unless you're a doctor, is absurd. But, there is a reward to be reaped for paying for a college education.
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
I'm not sure your anecdotes tell the entire story here and if everyone goes to trade school, you suddenly have a ton of trade school applicants filling all the jobs, their earning potential will go down in the long run as the market gets flooded with applicants.
The other thing is the benefits of college aren't necessarily limited to learning things that produce widgets for someone in a capitalistic society. There are many other benefits and as I've stated before I think free college is the best way to get kids in red states to open their minds.
I'm not sure your anecdotes tell the entire story here and if everyone goes to trade school, you suddenly have a ton of trade school applicants filling all the jobs, their earning potential will go down in the long run as the market gets flooded with applicants.
The other thing is the benefits of college aren't necessarily limited to learning things that produce widgets for someone in a capitalistic society. There are many other benefits and as I've stated before I think free college is the best way to get kids in red states to open their minds.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?
I agree with you completely, but here we're just talking about the animal training role of colleges -- how the drones use them to prepare to earn a living.
Sure, there are other (arguably or, as I would say, inarguably) more important reasons for college. Those, at least as long as we're burdened with our current economic system, imply a leisure class. Poets and philosophers, without whom humanity is a glorified ant hill, either luxuriate in old money or starve in a Bohemian garret. Both are proven methods to drown in chicks, which is after all The Whole Point.
I agree with you completely, but here we're just talking about the animal training role of colleges -- how the drones use them to prepare to earn a living.
Sure, there are other (arguably or, as I would say, inarguably) more important reasons for college. Those, at least as long as we're burdened with our current economic system, imply a leisure class. Poets and philosophers, without whom humanity is a glorified ant hill, either luxuriate in old money or starve in a Bohemian garret. Both are proven methods to drown in chicks, which is after all The Whole Point.
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