2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

Categorizing this as an "unforeseen circumstance" is an abuse of language. It implies that it isn't a circumstance over which you had complete control; Barnes has chosen to leave BC for the rest of the year.

This is the first time I've ever heard of a player leaving for a non-injury/medical reason after playing games and retaining eligibility in women's hockey. I suppose the rule has been on the books for a while, but it is rather strange.

I don't disagree with you guys at all -- it seems weird to me and to be perfectly honest I'm not entirely positive the BC people I spoke to have it right, but they would know better than me.

BC's original news release said she withdrew from school and would restart her freshman year "both academically and athletically" in September 2018. I reached out to athletics and they seemed pretty sure about it. Obviously it's good for her and for BC if that's the case but if it was another school I'd be pretty mad about it... lol

There are now like 9 D listed on the roster. What happens if Barnes gets cut? Does she come back to BC?

She can't, she withdrew from school (as I would imagine Flanagan and Keller have done as well). Which would mean that if BC is wrong (and, again, I'm sure they know the rules a lot better than I do) and they apply for a redshirt and don't get it, she won't even be able to come back and finish the season as a consolation prize because she's not even a student.

If not, there is a good likelihood that she makes the Olympic team in 2022, and would then finish her BC career in 2023. That's a long span of a career (10/2017 to 03/2023) w/o involving injury.

Yeah it's just a bizarre situation. I feel like I had to deal with Poulin for like 30 years of my life because she did that at BU, and we'll have that with Potomak The Younger too, but neither of them actually started their first year.

It's definitely not a situation I've ever heard of.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

That's a long span of a career (10/2017 to 03/2023) w/o involving injury.

Essentially the same as Pankowski, except for the added wrinkle of starting Freshman year and then 'withdrawing'.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

She can't, she withdrew from school (as I would imagine Flanagan and Keller have done as well). Which would mean that if BC is wrong (and, again, I'm sure they know the rules a lot better than I do) and they apply for a redshirt and don't get it, she won't even be able to come back and finish the season as a consolation prize because she's not even a student.

That almost sounds like Harvard where Pucci and Gedman had to withdraw from school to retain eligibility when they were injured. It was a school rule for Harvard; is it for BC as well? Kind of sounds parallel to the deal where you get married and have a dozen kids but then get an annulment, and hey, you were never married! I don't really mind, but if my team had played BC w/ Barnes and got swept and then other teams don't have to face her, I'd think it was a raw deal.

I feel like I had to deal with Poulin for like 30 years of my life because she did that at BU, and we'll have that with Potomak The Younger too, but neither of them actually started their first year.

Frost did say a few weeks ago that it is not a foregone conclusion that Amy Potomak would sit out the second semester if Canada cuts her because of this whole situation. The Gophers are far enough off the radar that I doubt it would change much, but having seen 2010 and the difference that having Larocque made to UMD -- and she didn't even have her best 1/2 season -- who knows what impact Olympic comings and goings can make.

robertearle, Back in 2002, both Julie Chu and Krissy Wendell were in Pankowski's position, and in the case of Wendell, she'd also been centralized the season before (Team USA had a two-year centralization so that they could form a power team and win every game -- except the only one that really mattered.) Chu did her second Olympics before returning to deny Sara Bauer her second Kaz' (unfairly IMO), while Wendell already had her AARP card, so she got married instead of playing a 4th NCAA season.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

That almost sounds like Harvard where Pucci and Gedman had to withdraw from school to retain eligibility when they were injured. It was a school rule for Harvard; is it for BC as well?

I don't know of many schools that require you to officially withdraw if you just intend to skip a semester or two. However, that may be what she needs to do if she's going to drop out eight weeks into a semester (BC classes started on Aug 28). That's usually too late drop a class without it showing up on your transcript, and taking that many incompletes can be a real problem, even if your professors will grant one.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

Frost did say a few weeks ago that it is not a foregone conclusion that Amy Potomak would sit out the second semester if Canada cuts her because of this whole situation.

When are cuts going to happen? If it's before the 2nd semester starts, that'll be interesting to see. She'd have to re-enroll in classes at the start of the semester to be able to play.

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

I could be wrong but I don't see Barnes, at this point, being able to add to the blue line for USA national women's team.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

When are cuts going to happen? If it's before the 2nd semester starts, that'll be interesting to see. She'd have to re-enroll in classes at the start of the semester to be able to play.

In 2014, it happened the first week of January.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

In 2014, it happened the first week of January.

Oh there you go -- that's plenty of time then

 

[BCAlum]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

I don't know of many schools that require you to officially withdraw if you just intend to skip a semester or two. However, that may be what she needs to do if she's going to drop out eight weeks into a semester (BC classes started on Aug 28). That's usually too late drop a class without it showing up on your transcript, and taking that many incompletes can be a real problem, even if your professors will grant one.

It's an Ivy rule. You cannot be enrolled more than 4 years. I.e. there is no red-shirting. You may be able to go back to school for a fifth year, but you cannot participate in a sport. At least that is what an Ivy athlete told me.

 

[PenaltyKill]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

I could be wrong but I don't see Barnes, at this point, being able to add to the blue line for USA national women's team.

Can someone explain USA Hockey to me? Koelzer and Dunne were both at the camp for the tryout--why not pick one of those 2 over an 18-year old with no college experience?

At this level, you can't tell me that Barnes is that much better than the other two. Dunne has national-level experience and almost made the last Olympic team and Koelzer was a twice-nominated Kaz finalist. Is it politics?

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

Oh there you go -- that's plenty of time then

But playing the second half of the season blows an entire year of eligibility (unless you can get on the half-year eligible Amanda Kessel schedule, which I still don't really understand). Pankowski, for example, in 2013-2014 sat out the entire year after having been one of those Jan 2014 Olympic team cuts.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

But playing the second half of the season blows an entire year of eligibility

Oh I know -- I'm not saying the cut players would definitely go back, just that they'd be able to if they so chose. I thought cuts happened after the semester started and after they would have had to enroll.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

But playing the second half of the season blows an entire year of eligibility (unless you can get on the half-year eligible Amanda Kessel schedule, which I still don't really understand).

I don't understand differentiating Kessel from the others (like Larocque) who played in the second half and had it count as a full year of eligibility. Kessel played less than 3.5 seasons. She just had two redshirt years (one for the Olympic year, and one for a medical redshirt).

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

I don't understand differentiating Kessel from the others (like Larocque) who played in the second half and had it count as a full year of eligibility. Kessel played less than 3.5 seasons. She just had two redshirt years (one for the Olympic year, and one for a medical redshirt).

And "two redshirt years" is pretty unusual, pretty rare. Usually athletes are required to use their four years of eligibility in a five year period. Rarely do athletes get a second redshirt and an extension into a sixth year. (And the language is that the loss of the years has to be for circumstances out of the player's control.)

 

[Eeyore]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

And "two redshirt years" is pretty unusual, pretty rare. Usually athletes are required to use their four years of eligibility in a five year period. Rarely do athletes get a second redshirt and an extension into a sixth year. (And the language is that the loss of the years has to be for circumstances out of the player's control.)

It's pretty standard for the NCAA to approve a second redshirt year in the case of an injury, particularly if the player missed an entire season, rather than suffering the injury partway through one. The reason it's rare is because the circumstances that would create it are rare, not because the NCAA is reluctant to award the second redshirt. It requires either a player who missed one season on the Olympic team, military service, or something like a Mormon's mission requirement*, and then a subsequent season that qualifies as a medical redshirt. Or, it requires that an athlete have had two seasons lost to medical issues without them being so severe that it ends their ability to play. It just doesn't come up that often.

*Indeed, the Mormon missionaries demonstrate how commonplace it is for the NCAA to award an extra year. Their missions are for two years, and the NCAA has a blanket policy of not running the clock on their eligibility while they are gone. Some of them take a redshirt year and the two years off on mission, though the rules on this have gone back and forth.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

Can you name one other player, any sport, who got a sixth year due to being on an Olympic team?

 

[Eeyore]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

Can you name one other player, any sport, who got a sixth year due to being on an Olympic team?

Kessel didn't get a sixth year because she was on the Olympic team. She got a sixth year because she missed her fifth with concussion symptoms.

Honestly, the Wisconsin complaining about this has reached the point of pathos.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

Kessel didn't get a sixth year because she was on the Olympic team. She got a sixth year because she missed her fifth with concussion symptoms.

Honestly, the Wisconsin complaining about this has reached the point of pathos.

No, she got six years because of both circumstances.

There are *countless* college athletes who choose to take a redshirt early in their college careers, and then get injured later on. Because their earlier redshirt year was by choice, they do not get a sixth year because of the injury.

An utterly usual case that I happened to look up this week: There's a defensive lineman on the Wisconsin football team named Chikwe Obasih who injured a knee during the first game this year (or in practice the week after, not clear). He hasn't played since. This past week there were stories in the newspaper that he might be cleared to play. I wondered if he or the coaches considered redshirting him, because playing at all at this point would blow the entire year of eligibility. I was pretty sure what I'd find when I looked, and sure enough, in 2013 he took a redshirt year because he was a freshman buried on the depth chart, and wasn't likely to see much time on the field anyway. There is zero chance he could sit out the rest of this year and then get a sixth year from the NCAA despite the 2017 knee injury, because the 2013 redshirt was by choice, and not "due to circumstances beyond the athlete's control".

The only question for the comparison between Kessel and (for one example) Obasih is whether taking a year off to go to the Olympics is or should be considered "beyond the athlete's control", etc.

It's OK with me if it is. But I'll ask again: can you name one other athlete for whom taking off an Olympic year turned into a sixth year of eligibility? As far as I know, Kessel is not only a rare case, but may well be a unique one. If there are others, I'd love to hear about them.

Adding:
Another that popped into my head from the UW football team: linebacker Jack Cichy. Played in one game as a freshman in 2013. Wasn't injured or anything, was just that far down on the depth charts. Took a non-injury redshirt year in 2014. Played the entire season in 2015. Played seven games in 2016 (meaning a full year of eligibility) before a season-ending injury. Suffered another season-ending injury (maybe season-precluding would be a better way to say it) in spring practice in 2017. He/they might try for a sixth year for Cichy (or he might just try to get ready for the NFL draft, where he's got a decent chance of being drafted). But conventional wisdom is he is highly unlikely to get a sixth year, because 2014 was 'by choice'.

https://www.buckys5thquarter.com/20...ootball-jack-cichy-injury-redshirt-sixth-year

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

There are *countless* college athletes who choose to take a redshirt early in their college careers, and then get injured later on. Because their earlier redshirt year was by choice, they do not get a sixth year because of the injury.

Ehhhhhhhhh no this is not accurate. In fact this is the situation that most players who end up getting a 6th year end up in. The waiver process for the 6th year involving an injury for the 2nd redshirt year has nothing to do with the nature of the first redshirt and everything to do with the nature of the injury causing the 2nd redshirt. If a player tears an ACL and legitimately misses an entire season, they will always, always get that second redshirt. If they, like, sprain an ankle, and the team opts to sit them out for the rest of the year even though they're medically cleared to play 2/3 of the way through the season, that's another situation entirely where they might not be granted that redshirt.

Kessel's second redshirt is not problematic, because what her first redshirt was for has no bearing whatsoever on whether she could be granted a 6th year.

The major questions here, which I think are unprecedented, are (1) Is Barnes' current season counting as a "redshirt year" because she started the season, or not counting as a season at all since she's "restarting" her freshman year? I have no idea what the answer to that is. And (2) if this year is counting as a redshirt year, then if she's selected for the Olympics four years down the road, is her sixth year going to be eligible for a redshirt or not?

I have absolutely no idea what the answers are to this and I don't think anyone else here does either, since I don't think there is a single parallel to go off. Every other previous player who missed school for two Olympic cycles did so because they did not start their freshman year at all, and that senior year was their 5th year, not their 6th.

Which bring me back to -- I sure hope BC has this right, and they'd better find out ASAfreakingP, because if it turns out Barnes won't get a 6th year for 2022, then she absolutely should come back for the 2nd semester if she happens to be cut from the USWNT roster this time around.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

Ehhhhhhhhh no this is not accurate. In fact this is the situation that most players who end up getting a 6th year end up in. The waiver process for the 6th year involving an injury for the 2nd redshirt year has nothing to do with the nature of the first redshirt and everything to do with the nature of the injury causing the 2nd redshirt. If a player tears an ACL and legitimately misses an entire season, they will always, always get that second redshirt. If they, like, sprain an ankle, and the team opts to sit them out for the rest of the year even though they're medically cleared to play 2/3 of the way through the season, that's another situation entirely where they might not be granted that redshirt.

12.8.1.5.1 Waiver Criteria. A waiver of the five-year period of eligibility is designed to provide a studentathlete
with the opportunity to participate in four seasons of intercollegiate competition within a five-year
period. This waiver may be granted, based upon objective evidence, for reasons that are beyond the control
of the student-athlete or the institution, which deprive the student-athlete of the opportunity to participate
for more than one season in his or her sport within the five-year period.

Looks pretty clear to me. The "more than one season" must be "for reasons that are beyond the control of the student-athlete"; otherwise, no sixth year. The two cases of UW football players I mentioned are unlikely because of their two years was for a reason within their control. (Cichy is a little more iffy because he has missed more like two and a half years. though one was by choice.)