2017 Pairwise thread

[Rhett Hot]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

Except in consolation games...

Can you link to any actual statement which backs this up, because I can't find one anywhere.

"While it is true that most regular season games end after five minutes of overtime, if one team must win to advance to a second round of a tournament, the outcome of the game is official and “counts” for both teams. A team losing 10 minutes into overtime has a loss, just as if it had lost in regulation time. If tournament organizers choose to end the game after five minutes of overtime and play a shootout, then the game is recorded as a tie for NCAA purposes.

Read more: http://www.uscho.com/faq/about-ncaa-hockey/#ixzz4bF0CHFHM
"

 

[Patman]

Question for pairwise people. In postseason tournaments with continuous OT isn't the game still considered a tie if it is scoreless after 5 min for pairwise purposes? I feel like for the sake of fairness that must be true, but I haven't seen it discussed anywhere.

No, the format of the game is decided ahead of time and the result is the result.

If you choose to play infinite ot then it's either a win or a loss. If you play finite ot (5 min currently) and that period ends in a tie then it's a tie.

This goes the same for all in-season tournaments... this misunderstanding has caused issues over the years

 

[UML Puck Hawk]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

Honestly I think your side of the argument is the one that needs positive proof. I don't know how logic suggests that there be a tie for seeding purposes when there is no possibility a given game ends in a tie.

I think the reason you haven't seen it discussed anywhere is because that's not how it works.

Ok, so there is no way an NCHC regular season game ends in a tie right? And yet we count that as a tie once 5 minutes is up. Yet, specifically for postseason play we tell the computer the rules of Overtime have changed for determining who does/doesn't get to go to the tournament. I'm not trying to be combative here, I just find the logic to be a bit weird.

 

[UML Puck Hawk]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

No, the format of the game is decided ahead of time and the result is the result.

If you choose to play infinite ot then it's either a win or a loss. If you play finite ot (5 min currently) and that period ends in a tie then it's a tie.

This goes the same for all in-season tournaments... this misunderstanding has caused issues over the years

"While it is true that most regular season games end after five minutes of overtime, if one team must win to advance to a second round of a tournament, the outcome of the game is official and “counts” for both teams. A team losing 10 minutes into overtime has a loss, just as if it had lost in regulation time. If tournament organizers choose to end the game after five minutes of overtime and play a shootout, then the game is recorded as a tie for NCAA purposes.

Read more: http://www.uscho.com/faq/about-ncaa-hockey/#ixzz4bF0CHFHM
"

Thanks to both of you, that clears it up, though I still am not sure I like it, but that's fine

 

[tape]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

Ok, so there is no way an NCHC regular season game ends in a tie right? And yet we count that as a tie once 5 minutes is up. Yet, specifically for postseason play we tell the computer the rules of Overtime have changed for determining who does/doesn't get to go to the tournament. I'm not trying to be combative here, I just find the logic to be a bit weird.

The conference is allowed to do whatever they want for their own purposes after the 5-minute 5x5 OT is finished. The 5-minute 5x5 OT is NCAA mandated and counts for the PWR. The rest is the conference's own business.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

The funny thing about this discussion is that it actually mattered back in 2014. That year, North Dakota needed a win by Wisconsin in the B1G title game in order for North Dakota to be the last team in. Wisconsin won, but not until about 8 minutes into overtime.

 

[MplsSioux]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

Ok, so there is no way an NCHC regular season game ends in a tie right? And yet we count that as a tie once 5 minutes is up. Yet, specifically for postseason play we tell the computer the rules of Overtime have changed for determining who does/doesn't get to go to the tournament. I'm not trying to be combative here, I just find the logic to be a bit weird.

I'm totally on your side here 'UML Puck Hawk' and for the last couple of years have been on the same side of the argument you're presenting here.

Why would certain teams be given the opportunity to have an unlimited amount of time to decide a game and others are cut off at 65 minutes in which case they're stuck with a tie for PWR purposes? It makes it so that game does not equal the majority of other games throughout the season. If you're going to have an equation such as PWR, every single game that's input into it should be based on the exact same conditions. There should not be some games that go 65 minutes and others that are allowed to go into infinite in order to decide a winner. It's not logical.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

The easy thing to do here is NOT HAVE CONSOLATION GAMES.

 

[ScottK]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

I'm totally on your side here 'UML Puck Hawk' and for the last couple of years have been on the same side of the argument you're presenting here.

Why would certain teams be given the opportunity to have an unlimited amount of time to decide a game and others are cut off at 65 minutes in which case they're stuck with a tie for PWR purposes? It makes it so that game does not equal the majority of other games throughout the season. If you're going to have an equation such as PWR, every single game that's input into it should be based on the exact same conditions. There should not be some games that go 65 minutes and others that are allowed to go into infinite in order to decide a winner. It's not logical.

Using this logic, there should not be games that go 65 minutes to determine a winner when regulation games only go 60.

 

[UML Puck Hawk]

Using this logic, there should not be games that go 65 minutes to determine a winner when regulation games only go 60.

I just think it should be consistent

 

[ticapnews]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

I hope the winning goal of the NCHC Consolation Game is scored at exactly the 5:00 mark and then everyone can argue whether the puck would have entered the net before the non-existent buzzer.

 

[Numbers]

I hope the winning goal of the NCHC Consolation Game is scored at exactly the 5:00 mark and then everyone can argue whether the puck would have entered the net before the non-existent buzzer.

I think in that game there is a5:00 buzzer. No goal at that time and it's a tie.

 

[UML Puck Hawk]

I think in that game there is a5:00 buzzer. No goal at that time and it's a tie.

Shhhhh...

 

[tape]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

I just think it should be consistent

Having a win count as a win is pretty consistent IMO

 

[MagnessMan]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

The easy thing to do here is NOT HAVE CONSOLATION GAMES.

Agreed. There are other reasons to not have this game--the biggest being increased injury risk for NCAA bound teams. The only ones who want it are those clawing at the door to get in. I agree with the consistency comment too. NCAA dictates so much else--for example no three stars awarded in conference tournies. Why not this?

 

[Patman]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

I just think it should be consistent

I just don't think its really a big deal

 

[manurespreader]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

What I find especially interesting is the effects of teams getting in thru the conference auto bid. It's not all that unlikely. It's well known that teams who are already in don't play as desperate as teams who have to win or go home.
For instance, I give BC a descent chance of winning the auto bid, they're desperate, and sure it's a tough row to hoe but stranger things have happened. Robert Morris is no slouch, they could beat AF or Canisius. The NCHC has a history of lower seeds winning games in the tournament. So It could easily be the WMU wins out. If that happens I have three NCHC teams in the top 4.
And what about Minnesota. I could see them losing a game and dropping down to like number 11. So it could be that we'd end up with a Minnesota vs UMD game to start the tournament.

 

[Numbers]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

What I find especially interesting is the effects of teams getting in thru the conference auto bid. It's not all that unlikely. It's well known that teams who are already in don't play as desperate as teams who have to win or go home.
For instance, I give BC a descent chance of winning the auto bid, they're desperate, and sure it's a tough row to hoe but stranger things have happened. Robert Morris is no slouch, they could beat AF or Canisius. The NCHC has a history of lower seeds winning games in the tournament. So It could easily be the WMU wins out. If that happens I have three NCHC teams in the top 4.
And what about Minnesota. I could see them losing a game and dropping down to like number 11. So it could be that we'd end up with a Minnesota vs UMD game to start the tournament.

Several things I disagree with here.

First, I agree that there should be a greater intensity for teams who need to win to qualify. So, the BC thing, I agree. Also, the AHA. I agree. AHA and WCHA won't affect the field much, however. Only the possibility of an Air Force at-large really matters there.

BUT...To say that Western has lots of reason to play really hard because a #1 seed is at stake is a big stretch, imo.

I agree that Minnesota is inconsistent. They could easily lose Friday night. However, there is no way for them to fall below #8. So, there is no way for them to play UMD. Now, if you mean NoDak, I would agree. However, again, there you have the problem of the HE logjam in the 2nd and 3rd bands.

Lots can happen, for lots of reasons.....

 

[MplsSioux]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

Using this logic, there should not be games that go 65 minutes to determine a winner when regulation games only go 60.

Nope, this is flat out not true. Every single game has the ability to be tied and play an additional 5 minutes to decide a winner. Not every game has the ability to continue playing after 65 minutes to decide a win/loss for PWR, just the special few that we're referring to. Thus, the conditions of each game are not the same.

 

[chickod]

Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

Nope, this is flat out not true. Every single game has the ability to be tied and play an additional 5 minutes to decide a winner. Not every game has the ability to continue playing after 65 minutes to decide a win/loss for PWR, just the special few that we're referring to. Thus, the conditions of each game are not the same.

This past weekend in the Big Ten, Michigan State scored ONE GOAL in two games against Minnesota (lost 4-0 and then 1-1 tie the next night). They won a shootout and advanced. Their record is 7-23-4. Yes, those apparently are the "league rules," but that "tie-breaking" method is different than what is used in other leagues. That affects the PWR, because if they win the tournament they will have knocked out a bubble team. And some could question that a shootout gives a lesser talented team a more equal chance to win an OT game. Just saying...