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2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

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Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

dxmnkd316 said:
Being the best is tainted because he's the best? That's kind of what you're arguing here. That he was too good, therefore we can't count it. It's standard deviations above the mean. That's how you measure greatness. Because the means and medians will shift, how high you stand above the shoulders of other men will be a better measure.
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No. I'm discounting Ruth because he didn't have to play against Black players. If you want to argue that he was the greatest white player in the 1920s-1930s, I will not argue against that. My issue comes when you try to argue that Ruth's stats were better than [insert post-integration player]. IMO, you can't really make an accurate comparison.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Kepler said:
A good piece on the issues of normalizing baseball data.

For example: if Hank Aaron plays his entire career using the normalized ratios of the 2000 Rockies, he hits 1004 career home runs.
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But, if Aaron plays for the 1927 Yankees, he hits 0 career home runs...because he wouldn't have been allowed to play.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

jerphisch said:
What makes you so sure of this?
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If there are pharmaceutical amphetamines in the 1920s I've never heard of them.

Though I suppose he was also fueled by his psychological damage as an orphan. That's probably good for a few extra homers a year.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
No. I'm discounting Ruth because he didn't have to play against Black players. If you want to argue that he was the greatest white player in the 1920s-1930s, I will not argue against that. My issue comes when you try to argue that Ruth's stats were better than [insert post-integration player]. IMO, you can't really make an accurate comparison.
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Then Maris is out too because it was before the great Latino invasion.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Alltime Most Impressive Single Season Homerun Champion: 2013 Chris Davis.
 
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Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

I think we can all agree that the HR records should only count between 1969 and 1982.

Anything later, we hit the steroid era head on.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
It's impossible to tell from your little graph, but it appears that Latin ballplayers equaled Black ballplayers around 1961.
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My little graph says in 1960 there were about 26% non-white players and today there are about 37%. So take Maris' stats and multiply by, say, .7. His 1960 HR total is 43.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Kepler said:
My little graph says in 1960 there were about 26% non-white players and today there are about 37%. So take Maris' stats and multiply by, say, .7. His 1960 HR total is 43.
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43 more than Ruth ever hit...using your math. :p:D:D

And I'm assuming you're using 1961 stats. Maris didn't hit all that many in 1960.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

JF_Gophers said:
I think we can all agree that the HR records should only count between 1969 and 1982.

Anything later, we hit the steroid era head on.
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Can't count 1962 onwards because of expansion. Can't count before integration. So the only legitimate baseball records were set between 1947 and 1961. And by that standard, Maris is the most impressive.

If you don't count Ralph Kiner hitting a homerun every 10 AB, career. But he was from Arizona which was not a state when MLB was established, so he doesn't count.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
43 more than Ruth ever hit...using your math. :p:D:D

And I'm assuming you're using 1961 stats. Maris didn't hit all that many in 1960.
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There were Latino players in baseball, and black players who could pass for Latino, during the color line era. Bill James has commented on the unusual number of "Cuban" players in baseball during that period.

I guess Cap Anson didn't have a problem with caliente, only soul.

Yeah, for some reason I always think 61 in 60. Maybe it's because he really hit 60 in 60 and then had that tag on game. :)
 
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Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Kepler said:
Yeah, for some reason I always think 61 in 60. Maybe it's because he really hit 60 in 60 and then had that tag on game. :)
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Maris' HR arc throughout his career is pretty interesting: 14, 28, 16, 39, 61, 33, 23, 26, 8, 13, 9, 5.

If he posted those type of numbers today, I would wage that 95% of baseball fans would just assume Maris was juicing.
 
Fighting Sioux 23 said:
Maris' HR arc throughout his career is pretty interesting: 14, 28, 16, 39, 61, 33, 23, 26, 8, 13, 9, 5.

If he posted those type of numbers today, I would wage that 95% of baseball fans would just assume Maris was juicing.
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The end of his career coincided with the mound being lowered right after he retired.

So I'll discount those last few years for him.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Kepler said:
If there are pharmaceutical amphetamines in the 1920s I've never heard of them.

Though I suppose he was also fueled by his psychological damage as an orphan. That's probably good for a few extra homers a year.
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Late 1920's for OTC amphetamine inhalers (Benzedrine), but I was leaning more towards coke.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
Fortunately, I'm not the one trying to sell Ruth (you are). I'm not sure on the % of non-white players who would have taken MLB spots. No one could ever know because they weren't given the chance. However, I do believe it is safe to say that there were many great pitchers who Ruth did not have to face due to segregation. I would also counter your second point by suggesting that the percentage of people in general who were actively seeking a professional career in sports in the 1920s more than offsets the lack of other major professional leagues (although the NFL did exist at that time).
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Aside from Satchel Paige, who are these great negro leagues pitchers that Ruth missed? I'm sure there were some of course, but your premise seems to be that he missed out on facing an All-Star team. I think that's a big leap. I kinda doubt there were a great many of them unless I see some proof. Most of the greats I've ever heard of were hitters, not pitchers.

I'd also say in Ruth's case the parks were bigger, the pitchers had more license to throw at you especially in an era of no batting helmets where an errant fastball could (and did, in one case) kill you, and travel to visiting ballparks wasn't exactly luxurious. Despite that, it seems he could hit good pitching no matter what the color of the skin of the person throwing the ball to him.
 
Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
Maris' HR arc throughout his career is pretty interesting: 14, 28, 16, 39, 61, 33, 23, 26, 8, 13, 9, 5.

If he posted those type of numbers today, I would wage that 95% of baseball fans would just assume Maris was juicing.
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I thought he got hurt in like 64 or something and was never the same.
 
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