2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

[tape]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

The assumption in calling both is that there was a penalty, the embellishing player just sold it too hard.

As opposed to diving, where there was no penalty to begin with and the offender flops as if he was shot.

What I'm saying is that your second situation never gets called, even if there clearly was not a penalty to begin with. It's always both guys in the box.

 

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

What I'm saying is that your second situation never gets called, even if there clearly was not a penalty to begin with. It's always both guys in the box.

Is there a breakdown somewhere of what penalties were called by category in the league and college hockey in general? I don't want to have to go back and try to count them!

But I agree that if diving is being called as a stand-alone thing, I certainly don't remember many/any

 

[JohnsonsJerseys]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

What I'm saying is that your second situation never gets called, even if there clearly was not a penalty to begin with. It's always both guys in the box.

Yes, and that's the part I take issue with. I think it is the ref's way of saying "Hey, I saw the penalty, you didn't have to do that to get me to notice." If there is a penalty make that call only. Now if the player makes some big scene over nothing, THEN AND ONLY THEN, do you call embellishment because they're trying to make something out of nothing.

Best example I can think of this is high sticking to the face. How many times do we see a stick get CLOSE (but not contact the player) and the player goes down in a pile grabbing his face trying to get a call. That's your embellishment call.

Ryan J

 

[camilo]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

I don't really argue to give-and-take with that gentleman. I'm thinking that he doesn't get the idea that one datum cannot be used for a valid trendline.

GFM

Oh ouch! Yes Dr. Science, surprisingly I know data from a datum and a trend line from an outlier in spite of our differing opinions. Hell, I even know that alumnus and alumna are singular forms of Alumni! In the field of webforum college hockey bull$hitting, a liberal arts and business school education can hold its own against that of a technical school.

Yea, maybe the last season is an outlier and the two seasons previous to that were the trend. But it could just as easily be said that the first two years were taking advantage of the recruiting done before the debacle known as realignment, and now we're seeing what the trend has in store for us.

What I see, of course opinion only: the league, whether anyone likes it or not, was truly cobbled together by the teams not taken in by the BIG or the NCHC. That's a fact. Too small of local market, too small of facility, too little university support, too little historic success. Those two leagues (one by conference rules, the other because of pure greed) cherry picked the best teams from both the WCHA and CCHA leaving the teams that consistently tended (with occasional outliers) to be the mid- and lower-level teams in those leagues.

My personal opinion is that recruits don't view the league as elite as were the real WCHA and old CCHA. We don't have any of the consistent national powerhouses, our national championship teams are in the far distant past, the small teams don't have the big draws of the UM (both), UND, Denver, etc. etc. that they did to help prop up their finances and subsequent budgets for coaching, facilities and recruiting. We don't play regularly in the big houses where being seen by pro scouts would be automatic.

This all decreases the status of and prospects for the league going into the future, financially and in recruiting. Adding to that is the ungainly footprint that the leftovers have which makes a poor financial model even worse. Both Alaska teams and one in Alabama? No rationally planned league would do that, only one made up of teams desperate for a functional league.

I hope I'm wrong; Lake State, Alaska, NMU, MTU and BSU have been some of my favorite teams over many years, just because I really love small college towns and love the spirit of the teams they produce. I love the hell out of it when they beat a good team. I really hope I see one or more of them in the tournament every year. But I am not optimistic that my favorite teams will be able to recruit well and/or be able to afford to pay the kind of coaching staffs they need.

I don't blame it on the WCHA or its teams, I blame it on the greedy, short sighted MF's in the NCHC.

 

[pdt1081]

When the WCHA gets two teams in the frozen four - or even two or three consistently in the tournament - like NCHC or like the other leagues (including the old, real WCHA) have done from time to time over the past decade or so, we can whine about the biased media - but I doubt the media will be biased against the league if it's objectively top tier. It isn't.

You say two or three teams in tournament. There's 168 WCHA games. What happens when you flip the results in just 4 of those games? BGSU had losses to the bottom 4 teams in the league. Without actually doing the math, I'm willing to bet flip those 4 regular season games and Tech would be in the tournament. Heck, BG probably would have made the tournament, and easily won the regular season.

One team struggled with consistency on Friday nights and prevented at least two additional teams from making the tournament. That's 4 games out of 168. 2.4% of the league games is the difference between 3 teams in, and 1. That's a hell of a story.

 

[LSSULaker889294]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

What is the NC schedule looking like for WCHA teams?

 

[gfmorris]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Alright, I've waited long enough for someone else to do it, but no one else has stepped up. Geoff, this should have been in the very first post of this topic because frankly I didn't even realize Ferris was going down the tubes. So...join the cause and...
Ryan J

<img src="https://res.cloudinary.com/roadtrippers/image/upload/c_fill,h_316,w_520/v1423163957/save-ferris-watertower-2011618.jpg">

I'm honestly surprised that it took until POST 195 for someone to make a comment on that. Also, I threw in a semi-colon for my gaffe last year...

GFM

 

[gfmorris]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Oh ouch! Yes Dr. Science, surprisingly I know data from a datum and a trend line from an outlier in spite of our differing opinions. Hell, I even know that alumnus and alumna are singular forms of Alumni! In the field of webforum college hockey bull$hitting, a liberal arts and business school education can hold its own against that of a technical school.

Touché, good sir. Also, I've only got an undergraduate degree (hope to get back started with the master's degree in June).

In your list of "too little" statements, though, I think that it's hard to say that four teams with D-I titles don't have enough history. Are we mostly smaller state universities with little name recognition outside of our geographical area, the fact that we play D-I hockey, and maybe some research opportunity? [Okay, BG also plays MAC sports.] Yes, this is very much true. But I think that it's pretty hard to suggest that one sub-part year negates two good ones before it, seasons in which the league had top-five teams.

And to purpleinnebraska's question: you'd just have to hand-compile the data. It's a lot of work to start, for sure, but not as much for upkeep. One person can attempt it (and probably fail, because it's a large undertaking), or one person can architect a data set and more people work in a group to do it.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

I would like to add on to Geoff's points. The university presidents absolutely do support hockey, and from what I have seen more than any other league. I mean the Ferris guy is out there playing clarinet in the band. And second, the pro scouts. they get out to every rink. Don't think that because the game is in Marquette or somewhere remote, that the scouts aren't there. It's been my experience they are at virtually every game.

 

[John J. MacInnes]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Oh ouch! Yes Dr. Science, surprisingly I know data from a datum and a trend line from an outlier in spite of our differing opinions. Hell, I even know that alumnus and alumna are singular forms of Alumni!

Alumna isn't a singular form of alumni, since alumni in Latin is a male term only. The plural of alumna is alumnae.

I think three years is too early to determine a trend. But I do agree that the NCHC schools have a lot of blame in their corner.

 

[davyd83]

I would like to add on to Geoff's points. The university presidents absolutely do support hockey, and from what I have seen more than any other league. I mean the Ferris guy is out there playing clarinet in the band. And second, the pro scouts. they get out to every rink. Don't think that because the game is in Marquette or somewhere remote, that the scouts aren't there. It's been my experience they are at virtually every game.

Bowling Green, Mankato & Ferris are where you see the most scouts. You don't see them in Alaska or Huntsville as often. Bemidji gets a fair amount of scout traffic and Chicago, Arizona & Calgary have scouts that are Upper Michigan based or have UP ties so you often see at least one of them at Tech, NMU or LSSU.

 

[aparch]

... Chicago, Arizona & Calgary have scouts that are Upper Michigan based or have UP ties so you often see at least one of them at Tech, NMU or LSSU.

Facca, Comley, Roque, and Anzalone. Yep, can't tell ya why any of them would want to stay in the UP to scout.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

2015-16 was definitely a step back. Two of our three best teams took steps back as the season finished (thanks in no small part to points lost in Huntsville! yay), and our best team lost in the conference semis and had enough bad losses to miss the playoffs. No WCHA team was ever ranked as highly in any quantitative or qualitative measure this season as they were last season. You can spin this any number of ways:

1. The recruiting advantage of their previous leagues has faded, and none of the top teams is improving enough to keep pace or increase their lead.
2. The bad teams are getting better, and they're picking off the good teams (see UAH's home points down the stretch and UAA's sweep at Tech).
3. It was just a down year for any number of reasons (Mankato's offensive losses, steps back in goaltending prowess in Mankato and Houghton, offensive power outage in BG).

I think that you'll have to see where we are in a full recruiting cycle or three in the new league before we can make any definitive statements.

GFM

 

[blackswampboy]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

This all decreases the status of and prospects for the league going into the future, financially and in recruiting.

speak for your school, 'cause you ain't speaking for mine. we are a diverse conference, and stuffing all members into a neat little box of woe is simplistic at best.
BGSU's recruiting (and NC scheduling, another recent discussion) is fine, thank you very much, with no sign that it isn't continuing to improve.
financing had been an issue for decades...but is now on vastly better footing than it was in the waning years of the CCHA. night and day. (btw, I was also pleased to hear about Ferris' recent completion of their hockey endowment.)
certainly BGSU has faced its own set of challenges, and will continue to do so. but we will thrive in the WCHA or any other conference.

my partial list of conference concerns, in order:
1. the conference footprint, with associated travel burdens.
2. attendance (see #1).
.
.
72. whether teams wear whites at home or on the road. ;-)
.
97. outside reputation. pffft.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

speak for your school, 'cause you ain't speaking for mine. We are a diverse conference, and stuffing all members into a neat little box of woe is simplistic at best.
Bgsu's recruiting (and nc scheduling, another recent discussion) is fine, thank you very much, with no sign that it isn't continuing to improve.
Financing had been an issue for decades...but is now on vastly better footing than it was in the waning years of the ccha. Night and day. (btw, i was also pleased to hear about ferris' recent completion of their hockey endowment.)
certainly bgsu has faced its own set of challenges, and will continue to do so. But we will thrive in the wcha or any other conference.

My partial list of conference concerns, in order:
1. The conference footprint, with associated travel burdens.
2. Attendance (see #1).
.
.
72. Whether teams wear whites at home or on the road. ;-)
.
97. Outside reputation. Pffft.

<3

gfm

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Oh ouch! Yes Dr. Science, surprisingly I know data from a datum and a trend line from an outlier in spite of our differing opinions. Hell, I even know that alumnus and alumna are singular forms of Alumni! In the field of webforum college hockey bull$hitting, a liberal arts and business school education can hold its own against that of a technical school.

Yea, maybe the last season is an outlier and the two seasons previous to that were the trend. But it could just as easily be said that the first two years were taking advantage of the recruiting done before the debacle known as realignment, and now we're seeing what the trend has in store for us.

What I see, of course opinion only: the league, whether anyone likes it or not, was truly cobbled together by the teams not taken in by the BIG or the NCHC. That's a fact. Too small of local market, too small of facility, too little university support, too little historic success. Those two leagues (one by conference rules, the other because of pure greed) cherry picked the best teams from both the WCHA and CCHA leaving the teams that consistently tended (with occasional outliers) to be the mid- and lower-level teams in those leagues.

My personal opinion is that recruits don't view the league as elite as were the real WCHA and old CCHA. We don't have any of the consistent national powerhouses, our national championship teams are in the far distant past, the small teams don't have the big draws of the UM (both), UND, Denver, etc. etc. that they did to help prop up their finances and subsequent budgets for coaching, facilities and recruiting. We don't play regularly in the big houses where being seen by pro scouts would be automatic.

This all decreases the status of and prospects for the league going into the future, financially and in recruiting. Adding to that is the ungainly footprint that the leftovers have which makes a poor financial model even worse. Both Alaska teams and one in Alabama? No rationally planned league would do that, only one made up of teams desperate for a functional league.

I hope I'm wrong; Lake State, Alaska, NMU, MTU and BSU have been some of my favorite teams over many years, just because I really love small college towns and love the spirit of the teams they produce. I love the hell out of it when they beat a good team. I really hope I see one or more of them in the tournament every year. But I am not optimistic that my favorite teams will be able to recruit well and/or be able to afford to pay the kind of coaching staffs they need.

I don't blame it on the WCHA or its teams, I blame it on the greedy, short sighted MF's in the NCHC.

If your perception is that UAF has been experiencing recruiting problems the last couple of years, that likely reflects a lot more on your recent postseason ban, your coaching staff, and now the uncertainty of your program's future, than it does the overall quality of the conference. The top 3-4 teams are recruiting pretty well. Are they landing the Top 5% of the recruiting pool that is coming out of the USNDTP or similar sources of the "creme de la creme"? Rarely, however that was already the case in the old conference alignment - those guys will continue playing for the big name schools for the most part. It is hardly indicative of a recruiting problem for the conference as a whole.

 

[Squarebanks]

If your perception is that UAF has been experiencing recruiting problems the last couple of years, that likely reflects a lot more on your recent postseason ban, your coaching staff, and now the uncertainty of your program's future, than it does the overall quality of the conference. The top 3-4 teams are recruiting pretty well. Are they landing the Top 5% of the recruiting pool that is coming out of the USNDTP or similar sources of the "creme de la creme"? Rarely, however that was already the case in the old conference alignment - those guys will continue playing for the big name schools for the most part. It is hardly indicative of a recruiting problem for the conference as a whole.

UAF's recruiting is maybe a bit down, I think in large part to the postseason ban and associated (temporary) scholarship reductions. It has nothing to do with the coaching staff...as a somewhat qualitative point, many people felt Dallas Ferguson should have won the WCHA COY award last season, and didn't because of the NCAA sanction.

But good grief, we've had the WCHA POY, WCHA preseason POY, and back to back WCHA Defensive POY (and current NHL dark horse Calder trophy candidate) in the last three years. We have a Montreal draft pick on our roster. This sudden idea that we can't get good players to Alaska is kind of comical and I'm not sure where it's coming from. The next year or two will probably be a bit down while we deal with the scholarship limitations but we will bounce back.

 

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

And to purpleinnebraska's question: you'd just have to hand-compile the data. It's a lot of work to start, for sure, but not as much for upkeep. One person can attempt it (and probably fail, because it's a large undertaking), or one person can architect a data set and more people work in a group to do it.

Thanks! I guess it's something I'll have to do on an insomniac evening, by poring over a lot of box scores. General impressions, backed by nothing but gut feelings:
1. Stand-alone divings are almost never called, but that's true of almost any league
2. WCHA refs miss a ton of high stickings. NHL, USHL, other college leagues all seem to have more of those called. We can't have THAT MUCH more control of our sticks
3. Majors seem down. Better discipline, or backsliding by refs on calling them?
4. It takes a lot of holding for a WCHA ref to call holding

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Personally, I think the biggest reasons that this season appears to be a down year is because the WCHA (especially the perceived top teams in MSU and BGSU) did poorly in non-conference games AND the bottom half of the WCHA is better. The proof of the latter is in the fact that the WCHA champions didn't need 40 points for the first time under the new system to win it...After a relatively equal year 1 (except for UAH), year 2 had 3 teams with less points than what the last place team had this year... With those bottom 3 teams earning 12 more points this year along with the horrible record against NCHC teams, its pretty obvious that the top half of the league is going to be hurt by those things combined.

I agree with the sentiment of the coaches in the WCHA during the Final Five conference call. The WCHA is better than people think and teams like MTU, MSUM, BGSU, and FSU probably deserved better but have no one to blame but themselves for not looking better to the pairwise because of poor OOC performances. I can flip as little as 1 game to get MTU in (beat Michigan in GLI title, or split with UAA). I can flip SIX games and get 3 WCHA teams in the field (UNO @ MSUM, MSUM @ SCSU, Min @ MSUM, WMU @ BGSU, MTU vs Yale (T-W), and BGSU @ Miami). It's a razors edge.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Calling all nerds, anyone have a reasonable accurate way to turn total penalties and PIM to Minors, Majors, Misconducts/DQs?