2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

It's not that I think that the WCHA does it more. I think that the WCHA officiating enables it more. I think that you can stage 3-4 guys in the neutral zone and force turnovers without mauling guys. I think that you can also chip and chase and not get hauled down / slowed up two seconds after you release the puck, which is something that I regularly see in WCHA games. If the guy doesn't have the puck, leave him be.

GFM

Exactly. We're the NHL of 12-15 years ago. It's not the trap itself that's the problem; it's that you combine a trap with a whole lot of obstruction, interference, and holding, and you're left with a lousy game that fans don't want to watch, and perhaps more importantly, talented recruits don't want to sign up for. Our problems aren't even primarily in the neutral zone. In a lot of the games I watched this year, if you got between the dots in front of the other team's goalie, you were held, hooked, or tackled, usually with no call. If WCHA low scoring was all because of great defensive systems and solid goaltending, we'd be getting shutouts in non-conference games as well as league ones. But in non-ASU games, we registered only 2 non-con shutouts (BGSU over OSU, and Lake State over Brown).

We need to clean up our game, and make fans and recruits want to be a part of what we're offering.

 

[davyd83]

Exactly. We're the NHL of 12-15 years ago. It's not the trap itself that's the problem; it's that you combine a trap with a whole lot of obstruction, interference, and holding, and you're left with a lousy game that fans don't want to watch, and perhaps more importantly, talented recruits don't want to sign up for. Our problems aren't even primarily in the neutral zone. In a lot of the games I watched this year, if you got between the dots in front of the other team's goalie, you were held, hooked, or tackled, usually with no call. If WCHA low scoring was all because of great defensive systems and solid goaltending, we'd be getting shutouts in non-conference games as well as league ones. But in non-ASU games, we registered only 2 non-con shutouts (BGSU over OSU, and Lake State over Brown).

We need to clean up our game, and make fans and recruits want to be a part of what we're offering.

of course if we set up a strict obstruction/interference standard and enforce it, fans will complain about all the cheap penalties being called and how the refs are destroying the flow of the games. I've seen it happen at various levels when they've attempted to crack down before.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

of course if we set up a strict obstruction/interference standard and enforce it, fans will complain about all the cheap penalties being called and how the refs are destroying the flow of the games. I've seen it happen at various levels when they've attempted to crack down before.

If you keep enforcing it, I would think that eventually the players are forced to adapt, since they don't want to waste their ice time in the sin bin and force their teammates to kill off all of their penalties.

 

[Bale]

If you keep enforcing it, I would think that eventually the players are forced to adapt, since they don't want to waste their ice time in the sin bin and force their teammates to kill off all of their penalties.

Exactly. It's no different than when they started calling checking from behind more strictly. The one thing that stops players from doing that stuff is to penalize their team. It may be ugly for a few games but it ends up being a net positive in the end.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Exactly. It's no different than when they started calling checking from behind more strictly. The one thing that stops players from doing that stuff is to penalize their team. It may be ugly for a few games but it ends up being a net positive in the end.

I'm inclined to agree with you on that, but the rash of other fully-reckless majors (mainly head-contact related) don't seem to have slipped. But I haven't looked at a trend-line over the last few years, so ...

GFM

 

[gfmorris]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

So Kyle Schempp is gone from Ferris State. Who else is likely to leave that hasn't already?

GFM

 

[davyd83]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

If you keep enforcing it, I would think that eventually the players are forced to adapt, since they don't want to waste their ice time in the sin bin and force their teammates to kill off all of their penalties.

Generally it starts out very tight, then as the season wears on, players adjust and officials adjust. They had the serious crackdown a few years ago (remember "Obstruction-Hooking," or "Obstruction-Holding?" The game, at all levels, has gone to a very defensive style. 6-4 hockey is long gone and 5-3 is a rarity. And the secksee players generally looking to the WCHA. They have been trying to legislate less defense for over a decade and it hasn't worked. So I guess there really is no simple solution.

 

[JohnsonsJerseys]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Or my favorite penalty that I've actually heard called: "Obstruction Interference". Isn't that redundant?

One thing I would like to see eliminated is the scenario where an actual penalty is called on player A and embellishment is called on player B for the same play. If it was really a penalty, there is no embellishment. I don't care if the guy goes down in a jiggling, twitchy, "Oh my gosh I'm going to die" pile of humanity like a soccer player. He's just missing out on continuing control with the puck if he wants to take a dive. It's the offensive player's loss. You also risk the offending player not getting called and only the swan diving player goes to the box.

If you're going to call two penalties in those cases, just keep the whistle in your pocket because it's a pointless change to the flow of the game. One or the other or let them play.

Ryan J

 

[JohnsonsJerseys]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

In any league the goal should be to simply enforce the rules as they are written. That lack of doing so is really the problem, not so much how a team chooses to play the game. Six, seven years ago Tech was a dump and chance team. EVERY single puck leaving the D-zone was hard off the glass and then go chase it down. Back then Tech was not recruiting the type of speed/skill players who could break the puck out of the zone cleanly by just passing it around. They had to make their breaks in the neutral zone and try to go on offense from there.

In the last few years, Pearson and staff have done a good job upgrading the talent level of the team and they try to break out with puck control and go end to end with the puck in their control. Do they still bang it off the glass once in a while, of course they do. But, there certainly an overall change to the flow of Tech's game play over the last 4-5 seasons.

I watched the second half of the final BSU v MSU game this season after BSU had a 1-0 lead. It peeved the MSU announcers off something awful that BSU would do nothing but dump and chase and if necessary take one icing after another. Every whistle they would drone on about how boring it was and "hey, we haven't seen that play before..." I get it. It's not exciting hockey. However it was BSU recognizing what they could do to control the game and keep their 1-0 lead. In the end, they made it work and they won. Now, were they playing like that when they were up 3-0 on MTU a few weeks prior? No, they played a more traditional game and tried to play at both ends of the ice.

In short, if playing the trap, or whatever you want to call defensive hockey, gets you wins, how can you fault those teams for doing so? Not every team has the same skill sets or has build their line-up to play a fast paced up and down the ice style of game. You do what works best for your team. The fans may not enjoy it, but you're there to win games, period.

Ryan J

 

[davyd83]

In any league the goal should be to simply enforce the rules as they are written. That lack of doing so is really the problem, not so much how a team chooses to play the game. Six, seven years ago Tech was a dump and chance team. EVERY single puck leaving the D-zone was hard off the glass and then go chase it down. Back then Tech was not recruiting the type of speed/skill players who could break the puck out of the zone cleanly by just passing it around. They had to make their breaks in the neutral zone and try to go on offense from there.

In the last few years, Pearson and staff have done a good job upgrading the talent level of the team and they try to break out with puck control and go end to end with the puck in their control. Do they still bang it off the glass once in a while, of course they do. But, there certainly an overall change to the flow of Tech's game play over the last 4-5 seasons.

I watched the second half of the final BSU v MSU game this season after BSU had a 1-0 lead. It peeved the MSU announcers off something awful that BSU would do nothing but dump and chase and if necessary take one icing after another. Every whistle they would drone on about how boring it was and "hey, we haven't seen that play before..." I get it. It's not exciting hockey. However it was BSU recognizing what they could do to control the game and keep their 1-0 lead. In the end, they made it work and they won. Now, were they playing like that when they were up 3-0 on MTU a few weeks prior? No, they played a more traditional game and tried to play at both ends of the ice.

In short, if playing the trap, or whatever you want to call defensive hockey, gets you wins, how can you fault those teams for doing so? Not every team has the same skill sets or has build their line-up to play a fast paced up and down the ice style of game. You do what works best for your team. The fans may not enjoy it, but you're there to win games, period.

Ryan J

Outstanding analysis!

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

So Kyle Schempp is gone from Ferris State. Who else is likely to leave that hasn't already?

GFM

He's the 2nd early departure for the conference with Casey Nelson (d-MSUM) leaving already. I have some concern over a few MTU players but they haven't signed yet so there is hope.

 

[gfmorris]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

He's the 2nd early departure for the conference with Casey Nelson (d-MSUM) leaving already. I have some concern over a few MTU players but they haven't signed yet so there is hope.

I couldn't remember if Nelson wasn't an early signee or not.

And Ryan, yeah, chip/dump and chase is what you play when you don't have the wheels and hands. We're on ... maybe a decade of that. Our last really decent team was 2005-06 (which amuses me since both of our NCAA tournament appearances come after that). I think that we'll see UAH play it for a little while yet, although this move to small players may be an indication that we're going to break to a more wide-open play in neutral ice. I just wish that we had the wheels to really forecheck like crazy and force turnovers in the offensive end. But then doesn't everyone?

GFM

 

[manurespreader]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

It's easy to complain, but most every league has a defensive orientation. HE, NCHC, every one. And any time you do, you get these kind of complaints about obstruction. Take a look at Providence, ultra defensive team, lots of hooking, not that offensively talented, at least not compared to BC or some of the other HE teams. But from a systems point of view they execute very well and they do some things on the forecheck that make it that much harder to get out of the zone.
To address the other question from someone, Could we be better as a league, Certainly, yes, should we be better, Absolutely we should, are we non competitive, no, we are competitive and getting better.
To me it's a self fulfilling prophecy to a certain extent. Recruits read the boards, potential recruits read the boards,... they are not dumb.

I have no problem calling a spade a spade, but I do have a problem when the media from elsewhere, who don't cover the league and maybe,... maybe, see one game a year start talking about the league in a disparaging way that's not accurate. It hurts recruiting and the league unfairly. So yeah we can say, well we are not that good, but to tell the truth number 35 is not that far from number 6, and in fact beat number 2.
I think our league has excellent coaching and that is the basis of why I think every year it will get better.

 

[MavsFan]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

I couldn't remember if Nelson wasn't an early signee or not.

He's played two games for the Sabers and has a couple of assists.

 

[Bale]

He's played two games for the Sabers and has a couple of assists.

Now 4 pts in 3 games

 

[JohnsonsJerseys]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Alright, I've waited long enough for someone else to do it, but no one else has stepped up. Geoff, this should have been in the very first post of this topic because frankly I didn't even realize Ferris was going down the tubes. So...join the cause and...
Ryan J

<img src="https://res.cloudinary.com/roadtrippers/image/upload/c_fill,h_316,w_520/v1423163957/save-ferris-watertower-2011618.jpg">

 

[tape]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

One thing I would like to see eliminated is the scenario where an actual penalty is called on player A and embellishment is called on player B for the same play. If it was really a penalty, there is no embellishment.

I can't say that it's never happened because I've certainly not watched every single game that's played, but at least in games I've watched/attended, I've never once seen embellishment called on Player B without a matching penalty against Player A. It defies logic that this happens seemingly every time given the nature of what embellishment, you know, is.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

I can't say that it's never happened because I've certainly not watched every single game that's played, but at least in games I've watched/attended, I've never once seen embellishment called on Player B without a matching penalty against Player A. It defies logic that this happens seemingly every time given the nature of what embellishment, you know, is.

The assumption in calling both is that there was a penalty, the embellishing player just sold it too hard.

As opposed to diving, where there was no penalty to begin with and the offender flops as if he was shot.

 

[rustedblades]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

I can't say that it's never happened because I've certainly not watched every single game that's played, but at least in games I've watched/attended, I've never once seen embellishment called on Player B without a matching penalty against Player A. It defies logic that this happens seemingly every time given the nature of what embellishment, you know, is.

Worst embellishment call ever was in the West Regional last year SCSU vs. MTU on Alex Petan. David Morley (SCSU) gets a well deserved hooking penalty. Petan who keeps his feet churning the whole time trying to work through the hook gets an embellishment penalty. Re-watched a dozen times and still can't figure that one out.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: 2016 WCHA Offseason; It's All Over, Save Ferris

Worst embellishment call ever was in the West Regional last year SCSU vs. MTU on Alex Petan. David Morley (SCSU) gets a well deserved hooking penalty. Petan who keeps his feet churning the whole time trying to work through the hook gets an embellishment penalty. Re-watched a dozen times and still can't figure that one out.

I think he did embellish (to some extent) at a certain point, but well after the penalty should have been called on Morley.